AC130: AC130a and AG-HMC150

droliff

droliff

Active member
Hi all,

I did a search for a thread regarding the benefits of the AC130a over the AG-HMC150. I believe they are both 1/3" chips correct? I see the HMC150 for sale at various places on the web for between 2300.00 and 3000.00. The AC130a I have found for between 3500.00 and 4000.00. I shoot some events including theater productions, ballet etc. I own and have used the HMC40 for a couple years and, while the footage from it has been passable, I'd like to take the quality of footage to the next level. How big a difference will I see when shooting with either the AC130a or the HMC150?

Thanks.

Dennis
 
The AC130 produces a sharper picture than the HMC150 and has a much longer lens, which is both good and bad.

They are both 1/3" chip cameras, but the HMC150 is CCD whereas the AC130a is CMOS.

As for a comparison with the HMC40, I don't have direct experience with either camera, but Chris Harding here uses HMC82s, which are pretty much a shoulder mount version of the HMC40. He switched to AC130s and although found them better in low light, extra light was still required at wedding receptions. For various reasons he found the HMC82 was better suited to the sort of work he does and went back to them. Perhaps he will chime in with a bit of detail.

Here are a few of the many threads where the 130 and 150 are compared:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...s-HMC150-for-low-light&highlight=ac130+hmc150
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...)-with-HPX370-chip-set&highlight=ac130+hmc150
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?268600-AC130-Very-first-impressions&highlight=ac130+hmc150
 
Thanks Mike

Chiming now commences!! The 130 is a way better camera for theatre productions by far with the huge zoom and bigger chips BUT only use it in manual and you will get a great picture. My 130's just didn't work for me (not because I didn't like them) but because I was shooting solo with two cameras and they MUST (IMO) have an operator at the camera continually!! Also look at the AC-90 ...same sort of sensitivity of the 40 but totally clean gain so even theatre shoots will look good ....Just make sure the 12X zoom will be enough!! They are under $2K brand new!!! With the HMC40/80 for me in a dark environment 12db gain is the limit..then I need lighting!! I get a really pristine image if I set the gain manually to 12db and then light the subject with an on-camera or CFL lights. Obviously this is practical at events like weddings but not practical in a theatre where you have to stick to the house lighting. A 130 or 160 would work well there!!!

Chris
 
If you've owned a 150, the 130 is a seamless transition - other than being shocked at how much better the image is.

It's a heck of a camera, noise performance is great, I found the AF to be useable, the focus assist makes focusing easier, the image stabilization is great, gain adds less noise than the 150 did, and on and on. It's a bit bigger camera, so if your 150 was a tight fit, you'll be shopping for a new case.

GONE is that smushy "rezzed up" look - which makes motion rendering in AVCHD much better, too. That's really the best part.

I just returned from my first 130 shoot - wheelchair racers in the tropics. I was hanging from helicopters and chase cars (after - seriously - about 1 hour to familiarize myself with the camera). The red focus assist, push-auto AF, iris ring, and stabilization gave me an amazing useable shot ratio from a really crazy action shoot. I am quite impressed.

The final edit is supposedly being shown before Imax flicks this spring, will be interesting to see the 130 in Imax, too!
 
I use both a pair of HMC150's and an AC160 to shoot theater and concerts with. I have been VERY pleased witrh tyhe AC160. As has been said, yes the AC160 produces a much nicer image overall thanj the 150, though the 150 ain't bad. It's just that the 160 / 130 is that much better. Lower noise, better shrapness, and the color is a bit "cooler". Wiush I could afford another pair of AC160's or 130's but my business will not support that kind of expense right now.
I also find the AF performance generally ok, but like Chris said, you realy need to keep a close watch on it if your plan is to rely on the AF. If I was starting fresh I would certainly go with the AC130 /160 over the HMC150. It's worth the cost difference.
 
I was planning on getting an ac130a and 160a. I ended up buying hmc150s because of these reasons:
1. I shoot weddings and there are a ton of flashes going off. The 150 are immune to flash banding. Most of my clients want it on DVD.
2. I shoot action: car events, car chases, stunts, sports. The 150s dont jello or skew.
3. I shoot theater and dance with crazy lighting. Some users reported better results with the 150 or comparable results.
4. I need autofocus to work. Sometimes I use a jib or steady cam or hand the camera off to someone less skilled. In some situations I have to use autofocus.

Things I like better about the 160a.
1. Longer zoom.
2. Sharper picture
3. Better LCD and focus assist tools.
4. Dual media slots, but if one card fails the other stops recording too so the redundant feature doesn't really serve the advantage to me. This has changed with the ac90 though.
5. 1080 60p
The hmc40 needs more light. I like the wider lens of the 150/130/160.

In the end I wanted the better image of the 130 and 160 but ultimately I was willing to give up some sharpness in order to get the shot which is most important to me. There have been extensive threads about the autofocus problems with the 130 /160. The 150 shoots beautiful images in my opinion. It's not full raster HD but it looks good. The autofocus works and it does good in low light.
My general opinion after reading about these things since the first announcement is that if you are shooting more controlled events, talking heads, etc then the 130 160 are the way to go. But if doing true run and gun in situations that can be a frenzy without time to adjust manually, the 150 even though aged is the best event camera still.
 
Wow. Thanks everyone for the valuable input so far. This is helping me sort things out. Any input on the CCD sensor (150) vs CMOS sensor (130/160) technology? I've seen a bit of back and forth opinion on this.

Dennis
 
Panasonic have made huge advances on their CMOS chips now. My HMC82's are CMOS and there is no banding like the Sony's often have and no vertical skew during pans either!! I was very hesitant on getting CMOS cameras after the HMC70's still had CCD but I seriously have not had any of the so-called CMOS issues like jello, skew or banding ...I have an idea the firmware takes care of that...There is some "jello" present in the chips but a 12X zoom you never see it..however on my 130's it was very noticable on big zooms and zooming up fast to a distant object I did get about 10 seconds of wobble before the camera settled down, then again we are talking a massive 23X zoom which magnifies any issues a lot. It was a little annoying at Church weddings when a reader was a long way away and started talking while the camera was still bouncing a bit.....but move a little closer and go 50% zoom and you will never even see it!! The new CMOS chips certainly give a much sharper image..bear in mind that the tiny HMC40 (in good light obviously) has a much sharper image than the HMC150 so the CMOS chips are a lot better than the old CCD's ...I found that sensitivity is much the same though!!

Chris
 
I would consider looking at the ac90 if you are fairly pleased with the hmc40. Someone else mentioned it but I forgot to.
Clean gain and better sharpness than the hmc150 but without the long zoom or auto function issues of the 130-160 but it doesn't have a wave form monitor.
Like chris said the newer cams 40,90 130,160 all have an improved image over the older tech 150.
The 90 has the best OIS.

Another thing I like about the 150 is during dance, I typically also have a person on the front by the stage and the wide lense works well up close. The 40 isn't wide (to me) enough but since it starts out less wide it actually zooms in a bit more than the 150 even though it's only 12x vs 13x.
But in large theaters the bigger zoom of the 130/160 would help for far back cameras. Plus the 130 and 160 also start out wide like thf 150. I find the 150 a little too short sometimes but since a lot of my work is DVD I can cheat with reframing or shoot a project intended for 720p deliver in 1080 to allow for more zoom.

The 160 and 90 can do 1080 /60p but the 130/150/40 cannot.
 
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Hello Dennis,

I also say if you are looking between the 150 or 130, the 130 is a better buy for what you will get. I went to a local dealer (local for me was 130 miles)and tried out the AF100/130/160/250 and choose the 250 because it meet my production needs beter for live theator stage shooting. 4 uncompressed audio channels, AVC-Intra 100, P2 cards, DSR, PAP1 for stop lower for low light and many other reasons.
Dont just buy a camera based on reading about them, go try one out at your local dealer, mine would let you rent the camera if you wanted then if you bought that model they would detuct the price from the rental cost. I was going to buy a AF100 after reading about them and seeing the video and I am glad I did not. My dealer spent 3 hours with me going over all the differances and using them all over the store.

I will say one thing I am thinking about getting a 90 for a close up camera and run in gun type work. I think the 90 might fit you if you can live with the min lux.

As far as CMOS or CCD, I use flash band comp on my 250 so flashes dont matter, however if you pan the camera really fast yes you will get some, but what I have noticed is that everything is such a blur it wont matter anyway because you cant see when you pan any camera so fast as I came from a CCD.

Go try one first before you buy
 
rzr219 said:
Hello Dennis,

I also say if you are looking between the 150 or 130, the 130 is a better buy for what you will get. I went to a local dealer (local for me was 130 miles)and tried out the AF100/130/160/250 and choose the 250 because it meet my production needs beter for live theator stage shooting. 4 uncompressed audio channels, AVC-Intra 100, P2 cards, DSR, PAP1 for stop lower for low light and many other reasons.
Dont just buy a camera based on reading about them, go try one out at your local dealer, mine would let you rent the camera if you wanted then if you bought that model they would detuct the price from the rental cost. I was going to buy a AF100 after reading about them and seeing the video and I am glad I did not. My dealer spent 3 hours with me going over all the differances and using them all over the store.

I will say one thing I am thinking about getting a 90 for a close up camera and run in gun type work. I think the 90 might fit you if you can live with the min lux.

As far as CMOS or CCD, I use flash band comp on my 250 so flashes dont matter, however if you pan the camera really fast yes you will get some, but what I have noticed is that everything is such a blur it wont matter anyway because you cant see when you pan any camera so fast as I came from a CCD.

Go try one first before you buy
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input rzr219,

I have now done a little research on the HPX-250. Wow, that's really a step up. The AVC-Intra 100 codec with 10 bit 4:2:2 recording is pretty phenomenal for a handheld camcorder. The P2 cards are really expensive as is the P2 card reader. This would be a great system if I had the budget. I'll see if I can find a pro shop around the Cleveland area where I can test out the 130a and some of the other cameras.

Dennis
 
firehawk said:
4. Dual media slots, but if one card fails the other stops recording too so the redundant feature doesn't really serve the advantage to me. This has changed with the ac90 though.
Click to expand...

As an AC160 owner I wonder if this can be addressed in a firmware update or is it a hardware issue?
 
CMOS thoughts:

Flash banding: I don't do weddings, but several times a year do a BTS project for a national brand's sexy fashion shoots. I use a mix of DSLR and panasonic. And it's just flash, flash, flash. With the HMC-150 I still got banding (pro flash packs have much shorter duration). I just stuck a solid white PNG on the timeline and faded it over a couple frames, and pasted it over every flash. it looked FAR FAR FAR better than a full frame of "real" flash - more "cinematic" as that's how flashes are done in hollywood flicks I suppose. I do it all the time now. I did shoot a celebrity event a while back and kids were going flash crazy - even in that context, the enhanced-flash-pop-PNG just looked far better than a well-captured full-frame camera flash. You can control the flash duration by the number of frames it fades. Give it a try, it's ridiculously fast to cover all the flashes on your timeline this way.

Sensor Skew: Just shot a sports/actioney project, chase cars, helicopters, speed speed speed. I see some skew here and there, but far less than a DSLR. I think it's something "we" see more than any average consumer. There are times when a bit of skew seems to "enhance" the feel of fast motion - like in old cartoons, characters would "lean" and stretch. it's subtle but there are times I've seen this and though "christ, that really works". I do crash zooms occasionally for this sort of project, and I haven't seen any skew from that - not anything that bugged me or stood out at least.
 
Originally Posted by firehawk
4. Dual media slots, but if one card fails the other stops recording too so the redundant feature doesn't really serve the advantage to me. This has changed with the ac90 though.
As an AC160 owner I wonder if this can be addressed in a firmware update or is it a hardware issue?

Cards don't always fail this way. Sometimes they will fail after they are out of the camera.
 
Bucknfl said:
Originally Posted by firehawk
4. Dual media slots, but if one card fails the other stops recording too so the redundant feature doesn't really serve the advantage to me. This has changed with the ac90 though.
As an AC160 owner I wonder if this can be addressed in a firmware update or is it a hardware issue?

Cards don't always fail this way. Sometimes they will fail after they are out of the camera.
Click to expand...

Exactly. That's why dual cards is huge to me. Two copies of the footage. I t would be cool if it would carry on (with a warning) when one card fails mid-shot. But I really like having a backup. I've shot some pricey setups, when travel/talent/crew is added in.
 
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