About to go on my first audio equipment splurge

HansSteinert said:
Hey all, I'm a young and aspiring filmmaker. I don't know much about sound, but I understand the importance of it. Absolutely critical, and if I want my stuff to turn out well, sound is something I really need to nail. I've been reading a lot of the informative threads to learn as much as I can about audio. I'm looking to be able to produce DSLR shot films that sound as professional as possible. I know a lot of this has to do with work flow and post production, and that's something I will have to master. But right now, I'm looking at the hardware.
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Stop. Before you buy *any* hardware, buy a copy of the Sound for Film and Television tutorial. Play it (it's only a couple of hours). Now you'll have some basis to use in "looking at the hardware." This might well save you a bunch of time, money, and frustration. Just sayin'.
 
Bruce Watson said:
Stop. Before you buy *any* hardware, buy a copy of the Sound for Film and Television tutorial. Play it (it's only a couple of hours). Now you'll have some basis to use in "looking at the hardware." This might well save you a bunch of time, money, and frustration. Just sayin'.
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+1 on this Bruce. And Hans, if you'd like a copy, I'd sell you mine. Still in great shape and will teach you what you need to know to get great sound right away. PM me if you're interested.
 
joining the conversation with a dilemma, i think it relates to the subject.

my next project (as a director) will be shot during the next 3 months, 2-3 times a week.
i already have the DR100, and was about to purchase the following (+ finding a friend soundman for free):
ntg-3, simple rode pole, cables, shockmount.. (NO mixer).

i was thinking that even for a single production, it's kind of a good investment, plus i have the stuff available instantly.
on the other hand, i don't plan to be a soundman and i won't really need all this stuff around, after this shoot.
so i checked and found that i can rent a professional boom set (mixer, pole, cable, 416, etc) for around 20$ a day.
so if i roughly add around 40 days of shooting for 20$ a day- 800$ (with pro equipment and mixer)
it looks like a no brainer.
my only concern would be instant availability.

what say you?
 
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To me, it sounds like this will be more of learning how to make films (do we call them films nowadays?) than to make stuff that is festival bound or made to get funding for future projects, which is a great way to go. For me, I learn best by actually "doing" and making mistakes along the way. If this is the case, then I wouldn't invest a ton of money on audio gear. You can get stuff that "works" for $2K. It'll do the job, and you'll learn why using that gear might not be the best solution for bigger projects you may do in the future, but it's a start. You'll see that once you start doing bigger projects with lots and lots of takes that manually lining up takes will cost you so much more in man hours than just getting your timecode situation up to snuff so you can just drop stuff in and be done with it.

I should also echo what others have said, trying to learn everything in every department is going to make you frazzled and burned out. You just can't micromanage like that on a real shoot. You have to have people that have at least some idea of what they are doing. I would find people in the fields that you need (audio, lighting, camera..) that are on the same level as you so you can all learn by "doing" together, and ask around for help when you need it.

One thing I would recommend is getting to know the sales people at your preferred audio dealer, and they can at least give you a little hands on training with the gear.
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll check out those films, I know those guys know the field extremely well.

So, is it the general consensus that the quality:price ratio is better if you skip the H4N and spend 100-150 more on a more expensive alternative?
 
HansSteinert said:
Thanks for all the feedback. I'll check out those films, I know those guys know the field extremely well.

So, is it the general consensus that the quality:price ratio is better if you skip the H4N and spend 100-150 more on a more expensive alternative?
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I think the H4n is definitely worth skipping. I also agree that that Fostex on eBay may be the best bet right now. Although, one advantage to buying new field gear is that it hasn't taken a beating on location yet.

When I listed all of that gear earlier in the thread, I was trying to piece together a $2000 kit, and it just wasn't happening. I was over $2k and I hadn't even added in the expense of cables, memory cards and batteries. That whole set up just gets you one boom mic, there was no wireless kits or an indoor hyper microphone for booming. You really should have all of that stuff, and more importantly, someone who confidently knows how to use it.

I'm not that nay-sayer type who thinks that no one should invest in sound gear except professional location people. I see it case-by-case, and in your case it seems like you should focus on other things. The goal is to make stuff. Equipment is one of the biggest distractions that will keep you from making stuff.
 
Kit Hannah said:
I have twice owned the Zoom h4n. It was ok. I thought it did a decent job for what it was, but later elected to sell it and get a Tascam DP-008 Pocket Studio that I really like.
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The DP-008 is the size of my SD7xx series recorders, except for the 788T. All accessible functions are on top with the I/O being in the back including the headphone jack. It has two XLR inputs, just like the H4n, plus a couple of other 1/4" and RCA inputs. AA batteries and DC 5V in, just like the H4n. Nifty stuff. So what happens when you can't put this down on a table or surface and need to be portable and go? How would one be able to access the functions if this was placed in bag upright? Need to grab some ambience and stereo stuff decently with a small unobtrusive recorder? Use an external stereo mic rather than the onboard for higher quality? Only advantage I see with this is the ability to multi-track.

Headphone jack in back, volume dial in back, inputs/outputs in back, functions are on top panel.
 
Basically, Hans has presented an unsolvable equation. "I'm inexperienced. I don't have much money. Audio is important. What can I buy to sound great?"

Alan has done a great job with his list. I'd opt for a Sound Devices 302 because of the panning flexibility, number of inputs and limiters, but then you hit the price wall.

The bigger issue is operational ability. I know seasoned videographers who don't get audio. To be sure, getting good audio is not trivial. If it were, anyone could do it and interns would be assigned the job.

Hans, the title of my essay, which I don't have time to write, would be, "Location Audio: If you only knew."

I agree that at this juncture, the best results will come from partnering with a pro who knows audio. Be aware that there are people on the path ahead of you who may know more than you, but not enough to prevent problems. Use your projects to build your craft. You're not going to get it right sometimes. Learn from that. Do better the next time.

"Fix it in post" is a myth. Listen to everything with good headphones while you're shooting. Yes, while you're shooting. Sony MDR7506 or Audio Technica ATH M50.

Get back to us when you have something to talk about.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
Right, maybe I set my standards too high given the situation. For now, hiring a professional is out of the question. I'm just going to have to make due with my budget and try to do the best that I can on my own. I understand audio isn't trivial, and I respect the hell out of people who are good at it.

With all that said, thanks for the info everybody. I have one last question.

The H4N alternatives some of you guys mentioned... would it be possible to do this with them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6EVaopfwJc

Because I do have some run-and-gun uncontrolled environment shooting coming up in the summer, so it would be nice having that option.
 
The DR100 is better than the H4N. You can use the DR-100 the same way this guy used the H4N.

And you won't automatically get RF interference using a 3.5mm extension cable for a non XLR mic. So if you have a Rode VideoMic pro going straight into your camera, you'll get a decent sound. But really you should plan on getting a mixer, recorder, and good XLR mics in the long run.
 
Wow, that's interesting. They're the same price, and most of the buzz in the DSLR indie world is about the H4N. Wonder why everyone is overlooking this superior piece of equipment. Excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is better about the DR100? Is there anything it does worse?

What about the Sony PCM-D50? And the Fostex... how big is that? Just curious. If that can be used on the run going straight into my dslr, I'll probably buy the Fostex for sure.
 
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Use your search function. Mainly Zoom has better marketing. The DR-100 has better pres, better limiters, physical level knob and more. Use the search young Skywalker...
 
In the week I had a DR-100 the plastic 1/4 20 thread got totally stripped. Can't speak to the H4n being of higher or lower build quality.
 
update:

I got hired for my school newspaper as a multi-media editor, so I needed to invest in an on-camera audio solution. I bought an H4n + Rode Videomic pro + wind screener for H4n + deadcat for Rode mic + some stuff to mount it on top of my camera.

It's working great for this use. Originally, I figured I could also use the Rode Videomic pro with my h4n on a boom for short film use. Unfortunately after researching more, I have realized that I cannot do this because the Rode videomic pro does not have a balanced connection, therefore putting it on a pole with the extra feet of wires necessary will cause heavy audio distortion.

Bummer.

So, unless there's a hidden solution for this that I don't know about, I'm going to invest in a shotgun microphone to boom with my h4n for short films. The Rode NTG-2 seems to be the best solution at first glance, but a lot of people claim it isn't "hot" enough to pair with the H4N's weak amp. Is there a boom-able shotgun mic of similar quality to the Rode NTG-2 that brings in audio louder to compromise for the H4n's weak amp? Ideally, under $300? Looking at the At875r, which is only $180 and is much louder... but since I have $300 to play with for the microphone alone, I figured there should be other better quality options.

If no such solution exists for under $300, the other option is to just wait, save up, and buy something for under $700... which case I could still use recommendations (NTG-3 seems best based on what I've read, but I'd like to hear what more experience people recommend).
 
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HansSteinert said:
update:

I figured I could also use the Rode Videomic pro with my h4n on a boom for short film use. Unfortunately after researching more, I have realized that I cannot do this because the Rode videomic pro does not have a balanced connection, therefore putting it on a pole with the extra feet of wires necessary will cause heavy audio distortion.

Bummer.
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Well a proper XLR mic would be best, but with a 10.00 XLR adapter from rode you can plug your VideoMic Pro into the pole, or the cable if the pole isn't wired. You really got distortion? Or are you theorizing you will get distortion? Do you mean RF interference?

Anyway, if you haven't tried it just get the adapter for 10 bucks and try it out. I used mine that way in the shootout and I had no distortion or interference. Also just keep in mind to just save for grown-up mics later when you can afford them. The NTG-3 is in my opinion the best bang for your buck for a pro mic under 1,000.00. The "Pro" on the VMP is just a fancy word for a consumer level product. It's just meant to be a simple mic to put on your camera taking home movies, but it's sound is good enough to pass when it's used properly.
 
Chadfish said:
Well a proper XLR mic would be best, but with a 10.00 XLR adapter from rode you can plug your VideoMic Pro into the pole, or the cable if the pole isn't wired. You really got distortion? Or are you theorizing you will get distortion? Do you mean RF interference?

Anyway, if you haven't tried it just get the adapter for 10 bucks and try it out. I used mine that way in the shootout and I had no distortion or interference. Also just keep in mind to just save for grown-up mics later when you can afford them. The NTG-3 is in my opinion the best bang for your buck for a pro mic under 1,000.00. The "Pro" on the VMP is just a fancy word for a consumer level product. It's just meant to be a simple mic to put on your camera taking home movies, but it's sound is good enough to pass when it's used properly.
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Yeah, I definitely understand what you mean about the RVMP. It fit my needs great for newspaper, but obviously not "pro" when it comes to booming or any microphone for that matter.

Regarding the distortion, it's something I've been reading on this forum and other forums when trying to boom a RVMP. Are you sure a $10.00 XLR adapter will fix the unbalanced connection problem? From what I've read, the only way to fix the problem is by purchasing a converter box, which costs about as much as a $300 XLR mic. That's why I figured I might as well just buy a second mic.

The NTG-2 paired with an H4n is certainly a wild card. I've been reading posts by many who say that the pair is absolutely unusable because together it simply isn't loud enough for short film booming, yet I've also seen projects that used that very combination and got pretty decent results.

For example: http://vimeo.com/14866982

Perhaps the complainers are simply having bad technique? Or maybe it is a legitimate problem... I definitely could hear some background hiss during the dialogue which is probably a side effect from boosting low audio recordings in post.
 
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Hans, I would say that one of the most important things to do, at this stage, is to step back and consider what part of film-making/video production/multi-media creation most interests you.

This stuff is so complex and requires so many contributors to create a quality product that most people must specialize, I think. Yes, you could find an eight-armed acrobat with a 195 IQ and the ability to be in 5 places at once that could do it all, but most of us must delegate. :-)

I tried to wear a lot of hats when I produced my first short film: producer/exec producer, location scout, SAG liaison, cinematographer, gaffer. The results were as you might expect: unwatchable.

Sound is such an odd, specialized function that it really makes sense to do as a previous poster recommended and bring on a budding sound guy at about the same level.

I say that sound is 'odd' because it requires specialized equipment and knowledge. Also, unlike the eager PAs, grips and assistants on indie projects, sound guys typically bring their own equipment, which grows in value as they advance.

That doesn't mean you have to hire a pro sound guy with a gold-plated resume and $ 100,000 + in equipment. If you're making small-scale films, then maybe find a serious sound guy with a modest, but trending-professional package. They're out there.

I recently worked with a boom operator who has sound mixer aspirations. He has a modest kit right now, but it would be sufficient for lots of low-budget, indie work... and he's serious and dedicated. I'd recommend him in a minute...

Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth...
Stephen Hall
http://sound.facesproject.org/
 
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Absolutely, but until I find that person, it wouldn't hurt to own the bare bone fundamentals - an acceptable mic/shock absorber/wind screener, a boom pole, and a recorder - for my own educational use and so I at least have the equipment to get acceptable sound with friends.

In the real world, wearing all the hats doesn't work, but when you're just starting out at the educational level, I think wearing all the hats, or at least having some sort of experience with all the primary hats, is beneficial. Reason being, you won't know what you love until you try it. Who knows, maybe I turn out loving sound recording and pursue a profession with it? And at the very worst, at least I'll be more understanding and literate about the sound world, which certainly can't hurt regardless of what I end up specializing in since sound is so fundamentally important.

I do wish I could find someone locally who's aspiring to be a sound recorder and who could team up with me, don't get me wrong. But despite my friends loving to participate and help out, they aren't serious about perusing filmmaking professionally, so they aren't willing to invest any money into it. The burden of credit card kinda falls on my lap if we ever want to get anything done, unfortunately.
 
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I own the at 875 and it's a really nice lower end shotgun with battery power. I see no reason to buy higher end for most purposes on shotgun. Try the xlr adapter first though. Oktava's round out the set, w/an EV dynamic for man on the street interviews.

I've had to become a sound guy to do my own films, hey it's fun! But I am trying to get a lunch club going to bring out folks who are really interested in learning/doing, I provide the gear if they don't have it on shoots. I would buy the tascam if I had it to do over, to get the built in line in, rather than mess with the zoom settings, as I come off a mix pre.
 
Yeah Hanz, that's why I mentioned the adapter. It's 10.0 bucks. B&H usually doesn't even charge tax and sometimes has free shipping. So you can find out for yourself. I think you'll be god to go until you can afford a better mic. I have heard of some people not getting enough signal with an NTG-2 and a H4N. I prefer the Tascam DR-100 for it's better pres and physical dials and more things you can see in a simple "vs" search between the tow. They both run the same price. I like the NTG-3 for both of those recorders because it's 6db more sensitive. 6db = 2x as loud. But also I suspect the people complaining aren't using proper mic placement. You want to get a mic within 2 feet of the mouth. If you are holding the thing 5 feet away it's going to be more than 2x as quiet and have a lot of room reflection - it's just physics. Anyway, one should be using a preamp like a MixPre with these recorders, or anything you are putting a mic into like a camera. THAT will do the heavy lifting to get your signal nice and strong. Even a DSLR will benefit from slapping a MixPre in there(with a pad cable). I know, too much money for now. Which brings me back to the XLR adapter from Rode. Your answer is 10.00 away. That 20db boost will help. Also you could run the VMP into a wireless. Put the transmitter on the boom op, and the receiver on the camera and bam. Wire free transmission of sound.
 
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