FS5: A7Rii vs FS5

So how does that relate if you're working within the ASC 35mm panning speed guidelines? You still find it bad on pans?

As for walking shots. I've never had a walking shot ruined by rolling shutter in my life. But this depends on your not just camera but also your lens, your rig and your technique.
 
I guess, in the extreme scenarios, one could just lower the resolution and increase the frame rate.

Oh and A7RII has a faster readout in full frame than in s35, since it bins in FF. The resolution drops too though, to about a 2.5K equivalent.
 
yoclay said:
Shooting from moving vehicles, or even with normal to slightly faster pans it still rears it's ugly head.
Click to expand...

As I've mentioned, out of the many projects I have incorporated these smaller cameras on, I have never had an issue with RS or diagonal lines. Even from moving vehicles the only RS I have seen is from inexperienced operators trying to pick off b-roll(often with busy foregrounds) hardly a deal breaker considering there are few cameras out there technically capable of capturing shots like that. As Ben mentioned, whip pans being one of the few exceptions.

Last year I dp'd a govt. training production for the department of defense, 15 cameras total with 2 f55's leading the pack. 4 day shoot with everything from explosive ordnance to tactical response and dynamic entry. Surprisingly enough, 75% of the material in the final edit came from cameras that according to popular opinion, are almost unusable due to their rolling shutters. If the camera can cover a group of special forces repelling down the side of a building, I'm pretty sure it'll be able to cover john doe walking down the street.

These things are like the swiss army knife of cinematography(esp for b-roll), great for a lot of things but if I had to chop down a tree, I would reach for an axe.


btw here is the full chart including a7rii performance, looks like its only .2ms behind the fs7 in 4k FF mode(and only 7ms in HD). Not too shabby :)

Test-Scores-RS-Sony-A7RII.jpg
 
a good friend and very experienced DP uses to state:
if your clients discover rolling shutter your content is probably boring.
 
LeoGrey said:
As I've mentioned, out of the many projects I have incorporated these smaller cameras on, I have never had an issue with RS or diagonal lines. Even from moving vehicles the only RS I have seen is from inexperienced operators trying to pick off b-roll(often with busy foregrounds) hardly a deal breaker considering there are few cameras out there technically capable of capturing shots like that. As Ben mentioned, whip pans being one of the few exceptions.
Click to expand...

Your probably right Leo, since I have experienced it on numerous occasions, I almost certainly must be an inexperienced shooter.
 
Last edited:
It wasn't my intention to offend you yoclay, my apologies if I did. We are all inexperienced at one time or another.. My point was that these cameras are not as sensitive to movement as some make them out to be.
 
A side note - which will work for all E-mount cameras : there are rumors of a 24-70 F2.8 E-mount lens being released around March, 2016. Sony has it in A-mount version but my hunch is that it hadn't released in E- it due to an agreement with Nikon. Now that their cooperation seems to be off - Nikon is rumored to be moving on to Samsung tech - there is a slew of the higher end/quality E/FE products on its way.
 
It wouldn't make sense for Sony to release the A-mount lens as an E-mount lens, because it wouldn't be any smaller or lighter than just using the A-mount version with one of the LA-EA adapters... it would just be the A-mount lens with a built-in adapter, basically. Kinda like how some of the Samyang/Rokinon lenses that were originally designed for SLR mounts (long flange distance) are now also available with mirrorless mounts (m4/3, E-mount, Fuji, etc- short flange distance)- they basically just have an adapter built into the lens. You're better off getting the same lens with a long mount and using an adapter, because then you can at least adapt it to other cameras. I don't think Nikon would have any say over Sony's lens lineup. The delay with the 24-70 2.8 FE is most likely just that they're still perfecting a design that's intended for E-mount's small flange distance, to allow the lens to be smaller and lighter than the A-mount design. This lens would still be a photo-centric design though, so it'll have a fly-by-wire focus ring, like the rest of the E-mount lenses. It being an E-mount lens would also preclude using a speedbooster with it, which may be preferable for some people, as 24mm is a bit long on a s35/APS-C sensor for R&G work.
 
LeoGrey said:
It wasn't my intention to offend you yoclay, my apologies if I did. We are all inexperienced at one time or another.. My point was that these cameras are not as sensitive to movement as some make them out to be.
Click to expand...

Thanks Leo. I recognize that you weren't aiming at me directly. However, I actually have been shooting with DSLR's since the 5D Mark II, own an A7S, 5D Mark III and F3 and regularly shoot on RED, Alexa, etc. Not to mention doing a lot of grading for other people. I can spot artifacts from a DSLR almost immediately when watching other's work, and the most flagrant of them is rolling shutter. I do not feel I am overfocused on this, but frankly verticals which end up as diagonals, jello when handholding most DSLR's are everywhere. Perhaps people have become so used to it, that they don't see it. But I definitely do and I think it cheapens the quality of many productions. I am a firm believer in the right camera for the right job. I would not hesitate to use some DSLR's for locked off shots, but shooting from the side of a moving vehicle for instance is a big no, no. This will change with time, but for the moment there are very few bodies out there that shoot at 5-7 ms. So if you are telling me that you would not hesitate to use most of the DSLR's out there, which are in fact in the 24-29ms range, for the kind of work I am speaking about then frankly my eyebrows are raised.
 
Last edited:
Handholding a DSLR is no way to shoot to be honest.

I do a lot of shooting for CBS' XCAR channel on youtube and I have shot tons of DSLR, Red and FS7 from moving cars with no problems.
 
yoclay said:
So if you are telling me that you would not hesitate to use most of the DSLR's out there, which are in fact in the 24-29ms range, for the kind of work I am speaking about then frankly my eyebrows are raised.
Click to expand...

I guess we are looking at this from two different perspectives.. Dennis was asking about the a7rii vs fs5. If I already owned one of the best global shutter cameras on the market, why not own one of the best stills/video cameras on the market as well? If not for its quality then surely for its stealth/portability. The fs5 is a much stronger HD camera than a 4k one and the sensor readouts for the a7rii is 7ms in HD mode :)

Perhaps I have not seen these issues in my media due to the fact that I would never try to hand hold one of them. My barest bones setup is a gun stock style arm made by novoflex that provides stabilization for most scenarios(especially with IS/IBIS). I would have no problem shooting an a7rii out the side of a moving vehicle so long as it was adequately stabilized and foreground elements were at a reasonable distance.
 
Last edited:
Just going to weigh in a bit

RS can be a big issue, not so much when you play stuff for the web but when you show larger. But i don't mean whip pans or slanting edges, i don't have an issue with that at all, you see that all the time these days. The issue is vertical jello. When you jerk a camera with slow rolling shutter there's a vertical compression/decompression of the image usually called jello. Any form of vibration will trigger this and results in an image that, to my eye, just doesn't look right, awful in fact. However both the A7rII and the A7sII have IBIS and that is able to take the edge off the typical micro jitters you get whilst hand holding. It doesn't fix RS at all, but minimises the occasions where it crops up. I have had car mounted footage which i've just thrown up because of this.

Whether the form factor is right depends on what and how you shoot.

Typically i like a heavier weight camera but more recently i've been on last minute opportunities where i've been able to pack a backpack with the A7s + Lenses + O7Q recorder and head into places that would be a nightmare with many bags of gear and with the image from the A7sII (and the rII i suspect) been really happy with the results. The internal recording aint bad either, depending on the scene.

I've also enjoyed using the EVF in sunlight too, which is a different way of shooting for me compared to a normal rig monitoring off the O7Q, which in daylight can be challenging sometimes.

So i think there are benefits to the form factor too

cheers
Paul
 
Ben Scott said:
Handholding a DSLR is no way to shoot to be honest.
Click to expand...

I have a director who more and more wants handheld / mobile feeling shots. With the F55 fully decked out I'd have to start body building in order to even think about using it. The FS7 is a bit better, but not that much. For "handheld" I'll have to invest in an EasyRig but for the money I'd rather blow it on an FS5 or A7Xii.. and then I'll need two of them because this particular director wants two-cam shoot most of the time.

[Edit] The talk about the rolling shutter, I don't know. I watch a lot of content shot on various camera's on TV, in theatres, etc.. and so rarely do I see it rear its ugly head. I pick up on it in fast pans but I doubt the audience/viewer clues in. I also noticed FCPX has "rolling shutter" fix so I just find it hard to believe it's as much an issue as its being made out to be. Of course if depends what you shoot too.
 
Last edited:
starcentral said:
I have a director who more and more wants handheld / mobile feeling shots. With the F55 fully decked out I'd have to start body building in order to even think about using it. The FS7 is a bit better, but not that much. For "handheld" I'll have to invest in an EasyRig but for the money I'd rather blow it on an FS5 or A7Xii.. and then I'll need two of them because this particular director wants two-cam shoot most of the time.

[Edit] The talk about the rolling shutter, I don't know. I watch a lot of content shot on various camera's on TV, in theatres, etc.. and so rarely do I see it rear its ugly head. I pick up on it in fast pans but I doubt the audience/viewer clues in. I also noticed FCPX has "rolling shutter" fix so I just find it hard to believe it's as much an issue as its being made out to be. Of course if depends what you shoot too.
Click to expand...

If you go by the "7 sec rule" you will never see it.
IMHO it is much less in the FS5 than the A7s (in FF mode). But even the A7s is fine if you stay with the rule.
 
paulcurtis said:
Just going to weigh in a bit
I've also enjoyed using the EVF in sunlight too, which is a different way of shooting for me compared to a normal rig monitoring off the O7Q, which in daylight can be challenging sometimes.
Click to expand...

Such an underrated feature of these cameras. The viewfinder combined with an after market eyecup and some form of chest stabilization is such a comfortable way to shoot with these things
 
Well after seeing the moire on the A7R ii & the A7S ii, I would think that the FS5 would be a far better performer in the video department.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Y_QdGwjac


I'm happy I watched this video comparison before buying either of those two cameras. I was disappointed with the moire on the A6000 but I expected more from the A7S ii. Perhaps the next generation will be better.
 
Personally, I haven't actually had problems with moire in months of shooting with the A7Rii. Rolling shutter can certainly be an issue in 4K S35 mode (although overheating is more of an issue for my style of filming – instructional videos with often long (5-10 min) shots and lots of back-to-back filming). Mostly for me I've been using the A7Rii in HD S35 which shows very little rolling shutter, minimal aliasing and moire (certainly no worse than any other DLSR/ILC I've used), and no overheating issues. I've been incredibly pleased with it as a 90% HD / 10% 4K camera.

A7Rii used on this shoot:
https://vimeo.com/145138186

I've only got the FS5 two days ago, but initial impressions are that rolling shutter is present but well-enough controlled in 4K. Tiny bit of aliasing, but nothing problematic – haven't seen any moire yet (but haven't been looking for it). Of course the handling style helps. The FS5 is incredibly well balanced, and for a light camera is exceptionally easy to hold steady. Very pleased with it so far.

For me I feel that FS5 and A7Rii together make a great 2-cam combo + stills!
 
JackCarter said:
Well after seeing the moire on the A7R ii & the A7S ii, I would think that the FS5 would be a far better performer in the video department.
Click to expand...

He was wearing a shiny golf polo with micro pin striping, this would be a nightmare situation for ANY bayer sensor on this planet. Have a look on any major broadcast and every once in a while one of the show analysts / commentators wears his favorite micro pattern designer suit(which makes the producer/director cuss up a storm in the truck) and the result is moire everywhere. Thats with an $120k 2/3rd sensor package :)

In more realistic tests with cityscapes, roofs and suit jackets without micro patterns aliasing/moire is pretty much non-existent.
 
starcentral said:
I have a director who more and more wants handheld / mobile feeling shots. With the F55 fully decked out I'd have to start body building in order to even think about using it. The FS7 is a bit better, but not that much. For "handheld" I'll have to invest in an EasyRig but for the money I'd rather blow it on an FS5 or A7Xii.. and then I'll need two of them because this particular director wants two-cam shoot most of the time.
Click to expand...

There is something very wrong if you are considering getting an easyrig to handhold an FS5/7.... probably more to do with the camera's form factor than your strength. Over a certain weight you really need to be putting the weight on your shoulder - this is why "smaller" cameras are fundamentally flawed for "cine" work, IMHO. Your own personal mileage can and will vary.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top