A look at HVX vs. Andromeda

I agree , if you own a dvx go with andromeda and if not hvx is the way to go. I'm sure Juan would not say this at this point in time but i'd bet money that there will eventually be an HVX/Andro solution. Unless of course red comes in at a very very low price but I don't think that will be the case. Limo991, I'd love to know more about this 2/3 single cmos 1280x720 uncompressed camera you speak of... can you give us some more details ?
Aloha
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Poi Boy said:
I agree , if you own a dvx go with andromeda and if not hvx is the way to go. I'm sure Juan would not say this at this point in time but i'd bet money that there will eventually be an HVX/Andro solution. Unless of course red comes in at a very very low price but I don't think that will be the case. Limo991, I'd love to know more about this 2/3 single cmos 1280x720 uncompressed camera you speak of... can you give us some more details ?
Aloha
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It is just a very small (but powerful) battery powered pc with a cheap industrial camera that takes c-mount lenses for now. I'm developing software for it. The system can do 1920x1080 24p. I'm saving for a 2048x2048 camera in order to test it in 2k resolutions. Those CCDs are 1.2 inch and take Nikon lenses with 2.25 crop factor. 12-24mm becomes 27-54. Or 35mm cine lenses with smaller crop factor. Should look increddibly good in low light since the area of the imager is more than 10 times greater than a 1/3inch chip. Especially the B&W version that has extra sensitivity. I'm working on implementing synch audio for that and a more capable system for medium res very high rate limited duration clips. The ones we use for special fx. 500fps etc.

Not many people need this level of quality and there are established companies in the high frame rate business. For a 2k solution, the cost of materials alone is close to $10,000 if you don't want to get into designing electronics ffrom scratch. Then we have the RED camera which will probably cover the market for normal frame rates.
 
is it an oqo computer ? sounds very promising, keep us up to date. Do you have any footage to share ?
Aloha
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For higher frame rates you are connected to a powered computer with ethernet cable. For normal frame rates you have the computer and everything with you. I have tried both.

Yes, very promising if it gets the time and the money it deserves which is not very probable:) I'm focusing on audio and other things at the same time so it kinda complicated. No footage at this time. If you are interested in such projects there is an entire section on dvinfo. Alternative imaging methods. Google "little DIY camera project". Similar project, different cameras.
 
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Barry,

So, what do you think of my points regarding the implementation of Andromeda for the HVX? I think it is (currently) an almost impossibility, given all the difficulties I mentioned. Do you think they are valid?

I wonder if Juan saw this thread, it would be cool if the man came here himself and talk about it.
 
I don't see why it would be impossible, very expensive yes. It really is only a matter of time; nine years ago when I bought my first digital back it was 4 megapixels and cost $22K. today I shoot with 39MP and my wifes cell phone has a 6mp camera ! I would also like to hear from Juan on this.
Aloha
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Mihai Meda said:
So, what do you think of my points regarding the implementation of Andromeda for the HVX? I think it is (currently) an almost impossibility, given all the difficulties I mentioned. Do you think they are valid?
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I would have no way of knowing. I certainly wouldn't call any of them "an impossibility", because -- hey, let's go back a couple of years. What if a guy told you "I'm going to tap into the CCDs of the DVX and give you high-def resolution, or 4:4:4 color sampling, both at full uncompressed, and I'm going to give you 2 stops' more latitude."

I would have called that an impossibility.

And I would have been wrong.

So I wouldn't sell Juan short at all. Andromeda-ization of the HVX may take some more effort and some more engineering; perhaps it'll need an on-the-fly LZW compression chip to cut the bandwidth in half, perhaps it'll take parallel streaming through a firewire 800 and gigabit ethernet port in some sort of parallel RAID type of array to offload the data. I'm sure there are solutions out there. Perhaps he ignores the whole capture/sculptor issue and just welds on an HD-SDI port?
 
Andromeda only for DV25 mode?

Andromeda only for DV25 mode?

Barry,

I totally agree with you. And I'm in now way selling Juan short, on the contrary. I'm sure he can find a solution to implement Andromeda to HVX. It is the consequence that I'm most afraid of (data size, storage, field practicability and so on). While I want the Andromeda on the HVX as bad as you do, the potential things you mentioned will no doubt take a long while to materilize, and so it is probable that we won't see it in the short term.

UNLESS - and this is an idea I just had - why not have Andromeda implemented only for the DV25 mode on the HVX? It will probably be (more or less) the exact replica of the Andromeda on the DVX. There are some problems, too - like the fact that with the 4x3 sensor on the DVX, the USB is almost already choking up, and so with 16:9 on the HVX probably USB is no longer an option (hence the need for an external box -boo). But maybe the Andromea can function only when you shoot 4x3 on the HVX.

Yes, it seems like a big limitation (4x3 on DV25 - you can't go for less on the HVX!) BUT:

- It probably requires no modification for Juan, thus it can be implemented immediately, with no extra months for reserach
- it will not lower the quality as compared to the DVX Andromeda, since it starts off the 4x3 section of the sensor with the same pixels/similar dynamic range (bypassing all the problems of cramming HD on same chip size)
- we can HVX PLUS Andromeda, so when we need it, we can have 720p 4:4:4 uncompressed video just like from the DVX, probably with the extra 2.5 stops, too!

Later on, Juan can think of providing a full blown Andromeda for the HVX, but at least for now we can have the equivalent of Andromeda on the DVX, when we need the uncompressed features (greenscreen, keying, heavy color correction)

Thus, we would have a much more powerful piece of equipment with lots of increased options for different scenarios.

Juan, what do you say?

Mihai

PS Actually, on second though, the 4x3 section of the 16:9 HVX chip still has more pixels than the 4x3 chip of the DVX...hmmm... so the problems arising from smaller pixels on the same chip would still not be eliminated. Anyway, this isn't a major concern, the idea still stands. I think! Opinions?
 
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We can only guess what is there to get on the HVX. If it's not pixelshifted then the data is too much. As Barry said, there is HD-SDI for this. But component to HDI costs only $1500 so why would anyone prefer Andromeda surgery at similar or higher cost? Andromeda DVX is good because it can do it on a 2.5inch disk. If the data is more than about 30mb/sec, then we need something better than usb and a desktop with fast disks and probably a raid 0 array. Compressing losslessly more than 50% is not very probable. DVCPROHD resolution 24fps is 100mb/sec. Andromeda HVX would only make sense as a product if HVX is low resolution and uses pixel shifting. Something like 960x720 24fps is only 50mb/sec without lossless compression and within the Andromeda usb solution capabilities with lossless huffman. If I judge by Andromeda DVX, this Andromeda would probably be marketted as 1920x1440 4:4:4 and would have a true resolution of 1440x1080 with 960x720 chroma.
 
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Based on the computer front, RAID 0 arrays are possible within laptops. Enthusiast companies like Alienware and VoodooPC are a couple of the companies that offer RAID 0 in their notebooks. Whether a couple of 100gb 7200RPM 8mb cache notebook drives is fast enough, I don't know. You'd get 16mb of cache in RAID 0, I don't know if that would be enough or not, I'm not THAT technical.

Unfortunately, Apple doesn't offer notebook RAID setups as of yet. Eventually they'll all probably have it as an option but that's then, we're here now.

As far as what output port Juan could use, there is of course HD-SDI as Barry has mentioned and a gigabit ethernet should do the trick as limo991 has said he uses for his own camera project. But I was thinking, what about HDMI? I don't know too much about that, I just know it's trying to be the new standard for connectivity to HDTV's and home entertainment purposes. I agree though, the big problem is not the port but the kind of computer needed to record from it whether it be a full fledged desktop or a notebook. But this makes me think again, what about just recording it to P2 cards? Wouldn't they be enough or are they not suitable either?
 
Poi Boy said:
Ok 4:4:4 is best , we all get that ! but we are talking about hvx/ andro possibilities.
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No:) UNCOMPRESSED is best! Uncompressed is so superior, discussing the actual chroma resolution does not even make sense. 4:2:0 uncompressed will outperform 4:4:4 compressed even in the most professional formats easily.

Andromeda takes the DVX from top row to bottom row. Not bad, even if it doubles the cost of the camera. ($6500 compared to $3500)


 
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Cache is not important. A raid 0 with 2x 2.5inch 7200rpm disks will never be fast enough for SDI. And the volume will be an OS disk and you will have a small penalty for this. If someone has an SDI PCMCIA solution, it could work for compressed formats but I don't know if the interface can be fast enough or even if it needs to be fast enough! But I doubt someone would think another compressed format would produce something so superior to DVCPROHD that he would want to get into all the trouble.
 
Hmmm, that's too bad limo.

So, an external RAID solution would be the only option? If that's so, why would you even want to bother with it then unless you're doing studio-type work and not out and about "run and gun" kind of situations? I realize the Andromeda isn't exactly a "run and gun" kind of thing either but you could at least go around to different places with it and not have to stop everything to set up. Plus, I don't think I want to turn into Mr. Olympia by lugging a whole desktop computer with external RAID around if need be. But then again, the big Hollywood films do this kind of thing all the time and set up big crews and all that so I wouldn't be too opposed to filming like that. I'd just worry about where I'm getting my power from and what places I'd be cut off from shooting such as, if say, I wanted to shoot on the Las Vegas strip somewhere. There'd be too many tourists and hussle and bussle going on that it just wouldn't be safe to set up a big shoot. I wouldn't be too worried about filming within a casino as that would be much easier to do.

But who knows? Juan could pull a big rabbit out of his hat for us and find a way. Heck, there's still talk of an XL2 version of the Andromeda on the Andromeda forums. Wait and see I suppose.
 
I guess I wasn't clear, when I said "4:4:4 is best, we all get that !" I ment uncompressed. The point was that Juan answered about uncompressed wich we all know as opposed to the technical issues and possible solutions for an HVX/ andro. That is what I want to hear about from him because he is the MAN!
Aloha
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Heck, there's still talk of an XL2 version of the Andromeda on the Andromeda forums.
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An XL2 version wouldn't make much sense from a marketing perspective; I'd guess that Panasonic will sell more HVXs in its first full month of production than Canon has sold XL2s since its introduction.

The Andromeda HVX just makes more sense. Andromeda DVX is a breakthrough product, but it's a $3,000 mod to a $3,000 camera. Andromeda HVX can just be so much better (potentially). I mean, an HVX is everything the DVX is, but more; a better lens, a longer lens, a wider lens, native 16:9 chips (no more anamorphic adapter!), variable frame rates, more pixels on the chip, more resolution possible... it's just more. So if you andromedize it, you get (you guessed it): more.

Plus, I think the HVX buyer is far more likely to andromedize his purchase than a DVX buyer is.

So ask yourself this: which would you rather have, an andromedized DVX for $6,400 or an andromedized HVX for $8,400? I have no doubt, no question, no argument at all -- the andromedized HVX would be the more desirable product in every conceivable way. Well well well worth the $2,000 premium over the andromedized DVX. And I think HVX buyers would be more likely to buy into the Andromeda as well; a lot of DVX buyers are stretching to afford their equipment and may not have an additional $3000. But HVX buyers are much more likely; HVX buyers already are buying $1400 P2 cards and $1800 P2 Stores and $2000 FireStores and $2500 CinePorters; HVX buyers will buy a $2,000 Mac just to edit the footage. Would an HVX buyer spend $3000 to get variable-frame-rate uncompressed 1920x1080 high-def from their HVX?

Um, yes. Yes we would.
 
nothing...
can't see it.

This is from the dvx I assume (I eagerly await any HVX + Andromeda solution)
 
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