F5: A few questions...

starcentral said:
Ralph,

you type this in command line? and what software do you need installed in windows?

Cheers
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Dennis, .cmd replaced .bat for batch files when windows switched to 32 bit operations. Paste the line into a text editor, like notepad, and save it with the file extension being .cmd instead of .txt then save it. The cmd processor will run it in a command prompt environment. cmd.exe comes with windows. Any thing with .cmd on the end is an executable file just like .exe, .bat, etc.

Note that file locations aren't specified so you need the ffmpeg.exe in the same directory as the one where you're creating the new files. ffmpeg.exe is the only file you need to download.
 
How about More & Aliasing?
Any issues with any of these two cameras?

And the rolling shutter on the F5, is it really that bad?
I was playing around with my dslr to see how much rolling shutter there was. And if I see results like that off the F5, Id be really bummed out!
 
Jump over to the FS700 section, a lot of complaints about aliasing, etc.. on the FS700 2k mode. I also read that the FS700 and F5 share the same sensor, which is somewhat believable but we need to look at more side by side footage from FS700 and F5 a little closer. If there are noticeable image quality differences between the FS700 and the F5 then it could mean that the video processor in the F5 is more like the one in the F55 and the FS700 is not very powerful or perhaps not optimized perfectly yet. (maybe a future Sony firmware will address this)

Here are some RAW files to play with from FS700 if you want to dabble http://www.xdcam-user.com/2013/06/stunning-fs700-raw-performance-really-impressive/

Further in that blog link are comparisons between RAW on the FS700 and the F55 and the write-up says that aside from the color depth there is not much difference. I think however if you record FS700 with Q7 it is whole different ballgame because you are then relying on the Q7 to de-bayer the video signal using its own algorithm and store the 2k or 4k video in compressed/uncompressed format but the point is it was de-bayered in real-time whereas remember that just like RED, or RAW R5 on F5/F55 the de-bayering happens later in post where you don't need real-time circuits to compromise quality for speed, etc.. . When it comes to de-bayering I'd rather have the control in post and also knowing that later updates to the software can allow the user to adjust or manipulate the quality.

FS700 may be getting a bargain on a Q7 to record 2k/4k but at what cost to quality of the image? Surely something.


As for rolling shutter someone with F5 will need to speak up about it. I have not heard a lot of noise about it or any complaints. Surely it exists to some extent, but it does on most single chip cmos sensors anyway.
 
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The best thing to do when considering a camera purchase is to test he camera yourself.

Everyone will have opinions (good and bad), on ALL camera systems. FYI I use Epic (but it's not mine - it belongs to Company I work for), I'm not a DP but have used my time around the camera to get familiar with it (in downtime and non pressured shoots etc).

So, why not try and hook up with some owner/OPs in your area (maybe offer to work for free for a day in return for some time with the camera) or make a trip to a Rental Co and test there? Or go to a large kit supplier/re-seller... if they know you're planning to spend $$ they'll be helpful and you'll (at least) get to touch/feel/try out the latest kit.

I seem to remember you were looking at the RED One a while ago, then looking at grip/lighting kit and now a Sony camera (maybe to take advantage of good credit terms Sony offer?) - so I take it you're building out?

It might be better, in the short-term to rent. That way, add an extra few prep days to your shoot and then run some tests on the side. Whilst this will eat away at some of your profit for a few shoots, it will leave you familiar with the cameras/kit you're thinking of and help inform a purchasing choice.

You could be stuck with a camera and kit you really dislike... and something you loose money on.

Bear in mind that DP's really never used to own their own kit (in the pre-Digital days). It was very rare fro a DP to have 35mm lenses (he might have 16mm/S16mm) but there wasn't the proliferation of low-mid-high cost alternatives we have now.

Same can be said for editing. For example, in 2002 a company I worked for purchased a Quantel iQ, as that did X2 streams of HD and even X1 stream of 2K in real time. Cost them £495K (nearly half a million sterling) and that was with 90 mins storage. By the time 2006 hit, HD was starting to be possible on the desktop - and the iQ slowly started to be mothballed. A company can afford to make choices like this to stay ahead, but (IMO) it's dangerous to invest in too much kit.

My advice would be rent for shoots, test out in downtime, get a BMC or similar (so you have a camera body for personal use), use F55, Epic and Alexa for your paid shoots and establish a client base.

That way you can't get caught out by price drops... and market changes... and you're not caught in a loop of purchasing choices.
 
I agree with Derek, that the best thing to do is rent, borrow or check out other camera systems from other DP's in your area.

I can show you my F55 anytime you want to meetup, I know its not an FS700 or F5 but you can still get an idea of the OLED VF and form factor or weight of the camera itself. There is also the Toronto RED Camera meet up from time to time and you can message Wil Wong @ REDUser for more details. I keep meaning to go to the next one they hold but something always prevents me from going. I also want to bring my Sony to it for laughs.

In the end, no matter what camera you seriously consider I think they all have flaws, pros, and cons, and I know from working with different cameras that you just learn to work around any short comings.
 
Certainly - not a cheap cam - you need to test - but no so easy I have tried a local dealer and also a local dp (offerered to rent) but been too busy to sort out

sony has not helped the dealer get a demo in which is not too good

red at pinewood uk were excellent in letting me play with scarlet for a day - and that was crucial to my buying descision - I decided the scarlet was too slow (iso) and heavy for me.

be bold in forcing your local dealer to get sony to send a demo over. Also be loyal to that deal er if you proceed

s
 
Morgan,

That really sucks to hear, not to mention surprising. You think they would want some potential sales in such a competitive marketplace. $$

For Michael I know at least two dealers in the Toronto area who would be more than happy to arrange a demo, and failing that I know a couple rental houses who would also be pretty excited about it. One of the vendors even offered to lend me a R5 if I was short of one and wanted it for a project. I find our support here in Toronto not all that bad.

Sorry to hear your experiences are different.
 
morgan_moore said:
red at pinewood uk were excellent in letting me play with scarlet for a day - and that was crucial to my buying descision - I decided the scarlet was too slow (iso) and heavy for me.
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I was talking about Red to a DOP friend yesterday and the subject of codecs and formats came up. The Red Raw codec is too limited for a wide variety of clients and purposes. Not everyone wants to work with Raw. To have the options that the F5/F55 have, XDCAM, SR, XAVC, Raw, etc gives you the flexibility to work for lots of different clients and types of work.
 
DDirector said:
How about More & Aliasing?
Any issues with any of these two cameras?

And the rolling shutter on the F5, is it really that bad?
I was playing around with my dslr to see how much rolling shutter there was. And if I see results like that off the F5, Id be really bummed out!
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Michael, I've seen zero moire or aliasing with my F5 in the past 4 months. In my year of owning a F3 previously I had only seen moire once on a crazy synthetic shirt a subject wore. I think it was moire'ing to my naked eye as well. Haha..

I've also seen no objectionable rolling shutter effects either. I will say a couple weeks ago I was forced to use a C300 on a job with a 70-200mm, while composing right to left I was shocked how much skew I saw. Granted I prob wouldnt pan that fast on a shot but it was noticeably way worse then my F5.
 
powervideo said:
I was talking about Red to a DOP friend yesterday and the subject of codecs and formats came up. The Red Raw codec is too limited for a wide variety of clients and purposes. Not everyone wants to work with Raw. To have the options that the F5/F55 have, XDCAM, SR, XAVC, Raw, etc gives you the flexibility to work for lots of different clients and types of work.
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Indeed there were a bunch of reasons I did not proceed with a scarlet, many "cured" by the f5
 
Morgan, off topic but what are your thoughts now on the new dragon sensor. I have to say its rather impressive. Me, I light most things within a 4:1 contrast ratio max and leave the rest of the dynamic range for extra room geared towards the highlights but to each his own.
 
Dragon looks fine/finatastic for cinematography - but to me (RnG) an epic is too heavy (and costly) - its just not on my radar in a way that BMC, Scarlet and Naked F5 are (price and mass wise)

I think I was originally piqued into thinking F5 as it is only 600g heavier than the BMC, and with no mattebox required and no XLR box it might actually be lighter than a built BMC.

I wonder if one will be able to feed to the sony raw recorder by a lead (cable) as keeping the recorder offboard would impact on mounting 3axis and the like

I like light (weight) cameras - just had the FS700 on my shoulder for 10 days and that is quite enough with Vlock and DP7

S
 
I was very much surprised to see Kholi yesterday in the other threads, who has always seemed a huge fan of Red, state that his take after looking at the Dragon sensor was that the Dragon looks great but he put the F55 and Alexa together for leading in skin tones, the Dragon next and the C300 a distant third.

On the other hand a bare bones Dragon Epic is what, $41k and more likely $46k to be functional, and an F55 is $28.5 and likely 34k to be functional? Or there about. Throw in the versitility of the extra codecs of the F55, global shutter and light weight (I can't see a Dragon being used regularly on a TV show) and the F55 seems a lot of bang for the buck.
 
Duke M. said:
I was very much surprised to see Kholi yesterday in the other threads, who has always seemed a huge fan of Red, state that his take after looking at the Dragon sensor was that the Dragon looks great but he put the F55 and Alexa together for leading in skin tones, the Dragon next and the C300 a distant third.

On the other hand a bare bones Dragon Epic is what, $41k and more likely $46k to be functional, and an F55 is $28.5 and likely 34k to be functional? Or there about. Throw in the versitility of the extra codecs of the F55, global shutter and light weight (I can't see a Dragon being used regularly on a TV show) and the F55 seems a lot of bang for the buck.
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Has Kholi used the Dragon himself or it based on Toia's Dragon video? Any chance of linking to the thread :)

In terms of broadcast, in the UK the Alexa is 'King' (for top end narrative) and I can't see Sony or Red dislodging it. But in the US, I thought a few shows shot Epic (Justified/Blue Bloods etc) but I can't imagine it would be used for reality shows etc.

Barebones cost on stuff is really down to what you consider a minimum (touchscreen, EVF, media, power?) , but I do think the F55 is aimed more at a hybrid market than the Epic/Dragon.

Ultimately, I think the only true way to really decide what system is best for you (and that's subjective) is to try them all. Internet tests and other opinions help and can form the basis of a test, but it's really down to the user's skills/experience and 'mindset', IMO.

Back on track with the thread, the original OP hasn't posted back for a few days, but he's circling around various systems and I think will benefit greatly from using a few systems before putting down any cash on something.

Starcentral's offers of help should be taken up - there's nothing like hands on use.
 
starcentral said:
Toia's video links:
DVX: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?311593-First-footage-from-the-RED-DRAGON-released
REDUSER: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?103732-DRAGON-ITS-THE-REAL-DEAL-!!!!
Video Itself: http://vimeo.com/71666317

There is also this: http://cinematography.net/edited-pages/camera-match.html
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Starcentral - thanks, but I meant the post Duke M. mentioned where Kholi was giving his view.

I started the thread on the Dragon, so I've already seen that one! :)

Not seen the Cinematography one - that's interesting!

BTW - has the OP been in touch yet?
 
Duke M. said:
Post number 84 where he said "Part of the tell is the Skin, Epic and C300 being the worse for me, Alexa and F55 pretty much a tie, and Blackmagic right behind them."

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?311518-Black-Magic-Cinema-Camera-price-drop-1-999/page9

From what I've seen (no personal knowledge) the BMD camera is what was promised for the Scarlet that Red never delivered.
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Ahh - OK, I don't read the BMCC stuff, so missed this. However, Kholi is talking about Red skintones in general, I thought (from your post) that it was in reference to him seeing/using the Dragon.

No experience on the BMC here either :)
 
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