F5: A few questions...

D

DDirector

Veteran
Hopefully someone can answer these questions for me.
I'm thinking about leasing a camera, and doing some major thinking about which camera to settle on. This being the most expensive on the list, I really need to see if its worth it.


The Viewfinder...
Do I NEED to purchase the Sony Viewfinder or can I use the Cineroid EVF4VRW instead?
> The Main question is whether I can access the menus through the SDI and have it work on high framerates.

The Sony Olivine batteries...
I originally planned on getting normal V-Mount batteries (Ikan V-Mount 160wh batties)
But, I dont know how long this battery would last, or how it would compare to the Olivine batteries. Which would last longer?

External Recorder...
If I have the Odyssey 7, or 7Q (whichever one I need) can I use that instead of the Sony's external RAW recorder to record 4K and RAW?

Frame Rates...
If I'm correct, as of now, this camera can only shoot internally a max of 2K and up to 60fps. But will be able to shoot up to 120fps in 2K with new free firmware updates sometime soon?

Bit Rate...
This thing has 10-Bit, 4:4:4 out of the box, or is that with Sony's external recorder or 3rd party recorders?
I also heard you can get it up to 16-Bit.

Media...
On the 64Gb Sxs Pro+ Card, how much run time will I need?
Just want to know if 64GB is enough, and/or how many Id need.

The workflow...
I heard you cannot edit the footage directly onto Premiere CS6. How do I transcode the footage while keeping the full quality?

EF Lens Mount...
This comes with the PL mount and some other mount. Whats the best option when using EF mount lenses?
 
I'll do the best I can...

1) Yes you can use an SDI monitor to access the menus. SDI SUB 3 has menu overlays. I don't have a Sony EVF- my old Zacuto works fine over HDMI although there are a number of monitor functions only available on the Sony EVF's.
2) I don't have the olivine batts but my understanding is their chief advantage over standard v mounts is their rapid recharge times and longer life span.
3) You will need the R5 recorder to record 4k raw with the F5. 2K internal recording to 60 fps is coming in Sept with V1.3.
4) Internally to sxs you get 10 bit 4:2:2 in XAVC codec in Mpeg-2 it's 8 bit 4:2:2. The R5 recorder gives you 16 bit linear RAW 4K.
5) You get roughly an hour of recording time on a 64 GB sxs in XAVC.
6) I use Davinci resolve lite 9 to transcode XAVC to ProRes. There are other programs that can do the same but Resolve does so much more.
7) I use Nikon G lenses for my general purpose zooms because you can mechanically adjust the iris with a cheap FZ-Nikon G adapter. For EF you need a smart adapter like the Optitek EF adapter.

I hope this helps. Cheers.

Ian
 
DDirector said:
The Viewfinder...
Do I NEED to purchase the Sony Viewfinder or can I use the Cineroid EVF4VRW instead?
> The Main question is whether I can access the menus through the SDI and have it work on high framerates.
Click to expand...

Check this thread, as the F5/F55 is having some HDMI output issues in 23.98 for some people and so far. I've only read success with the Zacuto EVF but hopefully others can chime in. I'm using the Sony OLED but a 3rd party one is a great way to save some money. http://community.sony.com/t5/F5-F55/HDMI-output-disabled-when-using-23-98-frequency/m-p/103723#M1206

I'm also having my own issues getting HDMI to work in 23.98 or 24p mode on my F55 but strangely it does work in 59.9, 29.97, and 25p - I have put an inquiry in with Sony about this but I mainly use SDI anyway so its not a huge issue but kind of bothers me.

DDirector said:
The Sony Olivine batteries...
I originally planned on getting normal V-Mount batteries (Ikan V-Mount 160wh batties)
But, I dont know how long this battery would last, or how it would compare to the Olivine batteries. Which would last longer?
Click to expand...

The F5 draws around 24watts. 160wh / 24 watts gives you around 6.5 hours of runtime - not including your EVF. The Olivine batteries for the same size will last longer but they are not cheap to get into.

DDirector said:
External Recorder...
If I have the Odyssey 7, or 7Q (whichever one I need) can I use that instead of the Sony's external RAW recorder to record 4K and RAW?
Click to expand...

I don't think you can record 4k to the 7Q with the F5, only with the F55 because I'm pretty sure the F5 can not output 4k through its SDI ports. I can look into this further.

DDirector said:
Frame Rates...
If I'm correct, as of now, this camera can only shoot internally a max of 2K and up to 60fps. But will be able to shoot up to 120fps in 2K with new free firmware updates sometime soon?
Click to expand...

The F5 shoots 60fps max right now but when all FREE firmware updates are said and done it will do 180p in HD and up to 240p in 2k raw.

DDirector said:
Bit Rate...
This thing has 10-Bit, 4:4:4 out of the box, or is that with Sony's external recorder or 3rd party recorders?
I also heard you can get it up to 16-Bit.
Click to expand...

The only thing 8-bit on the F5 or F55 is the MPEG 422 in HD at 50mbps should you want that. The F3 was 8-bit 420 in HD at 35mbps. Amazing quality images even with that!

The other codecs; XAVC and SR Codec are 10-bit. 422 for the XAVC, and 422/444 for SR.

RAW is 16-bit but you need external recorder.


DDirector said:
Media...
On the 64Gb Sxs Pro+ Card, how much run time will I need?
Just want to know if 64GB is enough, and/or how many Id need.
Click to expand...

You can use older SXS cards (like SXS-1 or SXS-Pro) and get away with up to 60p on them. They are not "guaranteed media" but many including myself have been using these for full day shoots without any problems. The Pro+ cards will be required for the higher frame rates later this year but currently they cost $1500 for 128GB.

DDirector said:
The workflow...
I heard you cannot edit the footage directly onto Premiere CS6. How do I transcode the footage while keeping the full quality?
Click to expand...

I suggest Davinci Resolve because it is FREE and the LITE version can output up to HD in resolution. I wrote a full guide on how to transcode in Davinci here: http://cinetiny.com/5SG4yVnQ

DDirector said:
EF Lens Mount...
This comes with the PL mount and some other mount. Whats the best option when using EF mount lenses?
Click to expand...

The native mount on the F5 is FZ mount, this is Sony's own mount. Then it comes with a PL mount adapter. If you decide on a Canon or Nikon mount then you take off the Sony PL mount and don't need it. The new mount will go right onto the camera.
 
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I agree with everything Ian and Dennis posted.

Also the cheaper SxS-1 cards (SBS-64G1A specifically) work with XAVC up to 1080 60p, consensus says they prob wont be able to handle over that (120, 180). I wouldnt reccomend them for it yet but in my testing they also seem to work with the newly released SR444 at 24p (360mbs), might not at 30p (400mbs).

Dennis, I read earliar today on CD site confirming what you said that neither the CD 7 or 7Q will be able to get any type of 4K out of the F5.
 
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Note that I'm able to shoot 4k 60p to cheap SXS Pro cards (not pro +) which is around 600mbps.. and on the F5 in HD or 2k mode 600mpbs will give you 180fps. The Pro cards should very well work.

I just read somewhere that the F5 may get a firmware upgrade similar to the FS700 which would enable 4k raw over single 3G-SDI link, if that's true, then the Odyssey would be a perfect match for shooting 4k RAW on the F5.
 
Okay, thanks a lot!
The major bummer is that I cant record 4K/Raw through the SDI onto the Odyssey 7. :(
I want the monitor, so it would have saved me a bunch not needing the Sony Raw Recorder.
If they do update the firmware allowing you to record out the SDI, like many cameras, then this is definitely the clear winner once again.

So, with the 3rd party EVF, would I be limited to any menu functions that I could get with the Sony EVF?
 
I might be totally wrong on the 4k F5 to Odyssey recording so look into to it a bit more, there's a thread here about it I'm pretty sure.

The menu functions are displayed through hdmi and sdi no problem. The problem you might have heard of when the camera first came out was that the outputs of the camera weren't enabled by default so if you didn't buy Sony's VF or LCD then you couldn't see the menu in order to turn on the outputs.. lol
 
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The Sony OLED viewfinder is super nice, pretty much the nicest EVF I've ever encountered. I know it's pricey, but if you can stretch the budget for it - it really will make your shooting life easier. (albeit a bit finicky for changing menu settings if you don't have an additional monitor)
 
Micheal if you ever want to check out my camera with OLED VF and external SDI monitor, let me know and we could meet up one day.

One big problem with the entire line of F5/F5 is there are still no built in monitor LUTS for when you shoot in slog mode. Sony says it's coming however, but no idea when.
 
Have they said anything about when they will have those monitor LUTS? Not being able to show a monitor on set (that you can actually see without explanation) would make my shoots kind of hard because the producers I have want to see stuff.
 
No news, but I found with a decent monitor over SDI you could get a pretty good non slog image by fiddling with monitor settings.

It depends how picky any peepers onset are about what they see. You could always show them a REC709 or HG image before switching to slog and recording.

You probably could even play with the OLED display settings for when working in slog just to boost the mid tones which low as he'll in slog2 mode. (30 IRE)
 
starcentral said:
One big problem with the entire line of F5/F5 is there are still no built in monitor LUTS for when you shoot in slog mode. Sony says it's coming however, but no idea when.
Click to expand...
Oh really? So, everything would be very flat then on the monitors.
When we shot that short a while back, I didn't remember hearing about this issue.
 
Yes with slog everything has a flat'ish look to it, but honestly after you look at it for so long or work with it for a long time, it starts to actually look normal I find.

On that film we shot I had adjusted settings on the 7" monitor so it didn't look that bad, actually if you remember everyone who looked at it though the images were amazing. lol
 
starcentral said:
Yes with slog everything has a flat'ish look to it, but honestly after you look at it for so long or work with it for a long time, it starts to actually look normal I find.

On that film we shot I had adjusted settings on the 7" monitor so it didn't look that bad, actually if you remember everyone who looked at it though the images were amazing. lol
Click to expand...
Exactly. It looked good. That's why I was confused. Makes sense now
 
starcentral said:
Yes with slog everything has a flat'ish look to it, but honestly after you look at it for so long or work with it for a long time, it starts to actually look normal I find.
Click to expand...
It seems those producing many of the shows agree. Much of what I'm seeing looks like uncorrected log. I like to shoot log, but not look at it.

Cheers.
 
Admit One said:
It seems those producing many of the shows agree. Much of what I'm seeing looks like uncorrected log. I like to shoot log, but not look at it.
Click to expand...


I agree. I'm slowly developing an aversion to looking at finished images that hold 12-14 stops. It was novel when it first started happening, but I'm not a fan of the look anymore.

I think it often includes too much to look at in the frame. A final image that is lit to look correct on a display that's displaying 8 or 9-ish stops is still my favorite. I think of it as directing the eye where to look, just like with selective focus. If you can see into every shadow, and see detail in every highlight, I think it's counter productive to mindful photography, where you're trying to control where the eye goes.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you want to see everything or there's a reason. But showing all 12 or 14 stops at once...not sure if it's always helpful.

I used to be a proponent of "yeah, all you have to do to make log look good is crush the blacks a little and boost the sat". Now I'm realizing that just makes for mediocre images. The best images come from correct reversal of camera log encoding (aka, a LUT), with tuned highlight and toe curves built into the LUT.
 
Nate regarding the LUT's do you know if the LUT's by Sony are truly "destructive". From what I've been told, only the lastest Cine-LUT should be used as a starting point, not the original F65 LUT and others that Sony released.

Any insight on that?
 
I have my own LUT generated from ACES that I use. It's a subjective thing, I think it's the prettiest.

I use that, and I just use ACES mode too.

And I don't want to ruffle any feathers, but I've found some strange artifacts in one of the Sony supplied LUTs, so I, uh, I'm not predisposed to listen to recommendations :-)
 
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