A-cam dII 'High Definition RAW Format Motion Picture Camera
- Thread starter seejay1031
- Start date
I like this guy. 
I think its a very, very interesting camera. Did he announce the price of the media? He said something like 250mbit sec, so it should mean about 2,5 GB per minute, right? So his 80 GB cartridges should give around 35 minutes, am I correct? How many slots does it have? It seems like one from the prototype.
What's the tentative price for this camera?
Its a 2/3rds system, right?
I think its a very, very interesting camera. Did he announce the price of the media? He said something like 250mbit sec, so it should mean about 2,5 GB per minute, right? So his 80 GB cartridges should give around 35 minutes, am I correct? How many slots does it have? It seems like one from the prototype.
What's the tentative price for this camera?
Its a 2/3rds system, right?
http://www.ikonoskop.com/files/35/A-cam_dII_Brochure_IBC2008.pdf
Technical specs from PDF about file size's say:
RAW: 3.5MB/Frame
DNG or TIFF: 12MB/Frame
That numbers are a lot of data to manage per second through computer.
Even more, specs shows:
Only 12 Minutes at 25 fps within 80GB SSD,
BUT even more..
A)Technical writing speed of 240MB its very very difficult to understand from my point of view, beacuse currently there only exist one brand that can gives this write speeds (Micron C300) thought the new SATA III (6Gbps)
B)12MB/Frame * 25fps = 300MB write speed per second that neither Micron or the suggested A-cam included 80GB can support
C)Also note that PDF says 12Min.@25fps, but in their website they said:
"One 80 GB Ikonoskop Memory Cartridge has a capacity of 17 minutes of footage, audio and metadata."
So what's wrong ..
Other thing; prices about Ikonosho 80GB memory cardridge ?
What kind of computer aor software can handle this amount of data ?
Maybe that camera comes with a beer inside the package¿?
I hope i'm wrong, i hope this camera pass all troubles
GOOD Luck to A-Cam
Technical specs from PDF about file size's say:
RAW: 3.5MB/Frame
DNG or TIFF: 12MB/Frame
That numbers are a lot of data to manage per second through computer.
Even more, specs shows:
Only 12 Minutes at 25 fps within 80GB SSD,
BUT even more..
A)Technical writing speed of 240MB its very very difficult to understand from my point of view, beacuse currently there only exist one brand that can gives this write speeds (Micron C300) thought the new SATA III (6Gbps)
B)12MB/Frame * 25fps = 300MB write speed per second that neither Micron or the suggested A-cam included 80GB can support
C)Also note that PDF says 12Min.@25fps, but in their website they said:
"One 80 GB Ikonoskop Memory Cartridge has a capacity of 17 minutes of footage, audio and metadata."
So what's wrong ..
Other thing; prices about Ikonosho 80GB memory cardridge ?
What kind of computer aor software can handle this amount of data ?
Maybe that camera comes with a beer inside the package¿?
I hope i'm wrong, i hope this camera pass all troubles
GOOD Luck to A-Cam
I hope this is a success.... the guy seems genuine and interesting. The specs sounds great and he is right about the ergonomics... it is not just to look pretty, but seems more natural to hold and more personal to the people in shot.
I loved his description of how people are using DSLRs handheld.
I loved his description of how people are using DSLRs handheld.
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
The recording would be 12bit to 16bit per pixel, or 3 to 4 MBytes/frame. Which is 75MByte/sec and 100MByte/sec respectively for 25p. 80GB would be 12minutes to 18minutes formatted. About 4 cartridges per hour.
A RAW camcorder does not need cpu time for decoding (no compression) but it needs time for debayering. But this only happens once at the slow output quality mode vs every single time you hit play on a heavily compressed codec. The compressed codec could easily be a lot more demanding to the cpu. A preview mode at full res can be edited real time in all modern computers because it does not use much cpu power. I don't know how the specific camcorder will do this, but in general it's not hard to achieve. What the raw format does need is hard disk speed.
If you record to a media that can record the rate, it can also play the rate, so you get realtime editing if the media can connect to a computer directly. If you can't connect the media, you need to transfer it to a 2 disk raid0 array which can easily do 120 MBytes/sec today. An external SATA raid is not expensive.
The material can also be converted to uncompressed RGB or uncompressed 4:2:2 YUV which is 150MBytes/sec and 100MBytes/sec respectively. Entry level raid arrays can easily do the job. And the good thing is that the cpu load is very low because there is decoding involved. You render at output quality before editing in this case for the transcoding.
If you want something that is easier to transfer, you can get DNxHD and edit that. You just have to wait for the original conversion of the raw video. In any case, you have a RAW master for archival and future use, something no compressed camcorder offers.
But anyone looking into uncompressed acquisition is obviously ready to make some sacrifices in disk space and storage cost. The storage cost is very low with modern disks, lower than most vendor specific media. Fully uncompressed material and fully uncompressed workflow is the holly grail of video acquisition and editing. You can't compare to a consumer format that keeps only 3% of the original image. You can't get something for nothing.
A RAW camcorder does not need cpu time for decoding (no compression) but it needs time for debayering. But this only happens once at the slow output quality mode vs every single time you hit play on a heavily compressed codec. The compressed codec could easily be a lot more demanding to the cpu. A preview mode at full res can be edited real time in all modern computers because it does not use much cpu power. I don't know how the specific camcorder will do this, but in general it's not hard to achieve. What the raw format does need is hard disk speed.
If you record to a media that can record the rate, it can also play the rate, so you get realtime editing if the media can connect to a computer directly. If you can't connect the media, you need to transfer it to a 2 disk raid0 array which can easily do 120 MBytes/sec today. An external SATA raid is not expensive.
The material can also be converted to uncompressed RGB or uncompressed 4:2:2 YUV which is 150MBytes/sec and 100MBytes/sec respectively. Entry level raid arrays can easily do the job. And the good thing is that the cpu load is very low because there is decoding involved. You render at output quality before editing in this case for the transcoding.
If you want something that is easier to transfer, you can get DNxHD and edit that. You just have to wait for the original conversion of the raw video. In any case, you have a RAW master for archival and future use, something no compressed camcorder offers.
But anyone looking into uncompressed acquisition is obviously ready to make some sacrifices in disk space and storage cost. The storage cost is very low with modern disks, lower than most vendor specific media. Fully uncompressed material and fully uncompressed workflow is the holly grail of video acquisition and editing. You can't compare to a consumer format that keeps only 3% of the original image. You can't get something for nothing.
That is, hands-down, the best FreshDV clip ever. I love that guy and I'm really hoping to see this camera in the market. I think he said "Super 16mm size sensor"?
By the way, that is an example of what a high-functioning European looks like, America. It all might seem a little hazy and vague, but see the lump that's manifested in his hands right there? It's all in the box. I think his languid delivery belies what is really going on. His to the camera moment where he says (and I'm paraphrasing), "that camera is good, but this camera is also good...in this respect...(uncompressed, not RAW)" was just fantastic.
Just awesome. Like a Citroen.
By the way, that is an example of what a high-functioning European looks like, America. It all might seem a little hazy and vague, but see the lump that's manifested in his hands right there? It's all in the box. I think his languid delivery belies what is really going on. His to the camera moment where he says (and I'm paraphrasing), "that camera is good, but this camera is also good...in this respect...(uncompressed, not RAW)" was just fantastic.
Just awesome. Like a Citroen.
Ikonoskop vs Red = Mac vs PC?
Ikonoskop vs Red = Mac vs PC?
It's interesting to me that Ikonoskop is approaching their product much differently, with an uncompromising vision for simplicity and size/form factor. This is a much different approach from what Red and others are offering, which is more along the lines of maximum options/power, which sometimes sacrifices form factor. That's not to say one is right and the other is wrong, I'm just noting the unique approaches. Not to kick off a flame-war, but it's almost a Mac vs PC corollary.
Ikonoskop vs Red = Mac vs PC?
Thanks Erik! While we are really proud of our NAB showfloor coverage, we thought doing something offsite for this interview would be a nice change of pace. More relaxed and casual.
Nope, to my knowledge Goran was not drunk when we conducted this interview. Just badly jetlagged. It was 4am for his body clock at the time we shot this. The video interview and other commenter's questions about inebriation are in context here: http://tinyurl.com/acamdiinab10the guy was drunk...probably partying whole night in las vegas, don't blame him
It's interesting to me that Ikonoskop is approaching their product much differently, with an uncompromising vision for simplicity and size/form factor. This is a much different approach from what Red and others are offering, which is more along the lines of maximum options/power, which sometimes sacrifices form factor. That's not to say one is right and the other is wrong, I'm just noting the unique approaches. Not to kick off a flame-war, but it's almost a Mac vs PC corollary.
I can certainly see this camera as the holly grail for documentary filmmakers. However, he really needs to bump up the capacity of the cartridges. I would say 35 minutes to be the acceptable time for a cartridge. And I do hope the cartridge prices are "affordable", since in doc situations one would need a longer running time then conventional studio/fictionwork where file dumping is possible.
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
When the 80GB cartridge was announced, 80gb 2.5" SSD were available that are similar in size. There is no reason to not expect 320gb or 640gb instead after two years. The generic SSDs using similar chips are now 512GB with 1024GB coming soon.
A good generic SSD at 512gb is now less than 2,000 euro. They could probably make their vendor specific media at low volume production and achieve a retail price of 3,000-4,000 euro. It would store 90minutes at 25p. And it would depreciate far faster than the camera body due to larger sizes and competition.
On June 16, 2009 Ikonoskop filed a priority patent application for the memory cartridge. So, other manufacturers will not make compatible cartridges (even if they were interested in low volumes). Every cartridge and everything that can read the cartridge, has to come from Ikonoskop. Adaptors to use common SSD are prohibited. If you need cartridges in the future or a reader, Ikonoskop have to still be in business, be interested in producing the units, and have a high enough demand at the time in order to produce them at reasonable cost. It is a very closed system.
It is so obvious that everything is built around the patented cartridge with the unknown pricing. The marketing revolves around it. Gold was the color of choice
When asked in the past they said one should treat the cartridge as film rolls and have enough of them to go through the shooting. The announced interface is USB2 for both the camera and the reader. This will lead to a 300% to 400% real time offloading rate, 15minutes offloading in 45minutes to 60minutes. 4 to 5 cards are required even with 100% offloading effciency. The obvious solution is to buy even more cards.combatentropy
Veteran
Carlos_Nieto
Member
I have a mix of love/hate feelings about this camera but I hope it will be a reality soon.
Adore the design, too. It's like the Leica M of digital cinema cameras.
Adore the design, too. It's like the Leica M of digital cinema cameras.
Wood floor moire! :laugh:
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
False color overexposure, magenta at 0:00 (cat) and cyan/magenta at 0:04 (fabric). Split screen effect on the dark cat at 0:02. Very sharp lens when stopped down.
Manuel López
New member
Hello Otis. I am reading the Drama thread, very interesting and informative.
About Ikonoskop, also I have noted the overexposure in cat footage, with green below normal values, very rare.
Which do you think is the cause?, the kodak sensor? this not happen in Drama camera, no?
Thanks
About Ikonoskop, also I have noted the overexposure in cat footage, with green below normal values, very rare.
Which do you think is the cause?, the kodak sensor? this not happen in Drama camera, no?
Thanks
Otis Grapsas
Carbonite Member
Design bug. The sensor has nothing to do with this. It's been a while since I saw a camera that could get magenta highlights. It's easy to fix in-camera. The split screen issue needs a lot of design though. The false color can be fixed in post but it's best is it handled by the camera. The split screen cannot be fixed in post.
Imaging requires total control. That's what camera manufacturers have been doing for years and why an HVX looks different from a Z1. You can't have total control by recording raw and leaving the entire processing to Adobe. The image goes from Kodak directly to Adobe. Where is the fun in that
Where is the camera designer in that equation? If DNG and Cinema DNG become de facto standards, Adobe will decide what everything will look like, and everything will look exactly the same.There is also the preview issue. How can you offer in-camera preview if you don't have control on what will actually happen to the footage in post? If you haven't written the code that develops the image? Preview is important. You need to preview in order to adjust lighting and make critical decisions. With an accurate preview you can make decisions in wardrobe, lighting, set designs etc without going through offloading and raw development.
A LUT for video is a very unique thing. It takes much effort to create good looking ones. Personally, I wouldn't want my material to be processed thought freely manipulated curves. I can't protect the sensitive adjustments that provide the look. Skin tones, shadow character, highlight handling, everything depends on tiny adjustments and is critical for a film look.
Manuel López
New member
¿? Then Drama camera is not raw? :embarasse I like the raw path. The processing isnt in Adobe, but in the user: camera raw is only a tool.
By the way, what is split screen?
Thanks
By the way, what is split screen?
Thanks
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