7D? Pah

[commanderspike]

I am about to make an experimental leap from a much loved and hated GH1 to either a Canon 5D or 7D. But I still think full frame is the way to go.

I have some Contax Zeiss lenses. These will look at their best on a full frame sensor and the 28mm Distagon will actually look wide.

All the top-end footage I have seen from the 5D looks more cinematic than the top end GH1 stuff. I like full frame.

I have a 10-20mm Canon EFS, which is designed for a 1.6x crop sensor. At 10mm it won't cover full frame. Will it at 20mm?

The low light performance of the 5D also means I can save money on lenses, I don't have to buy as fast - and I don't have to buy as wide. To get a 24mm equiv. on the GH1 costs an arm and a leg.

Oh and the Sigma 20mm F1.8 should look very nice indeed on the 5D, whilst it is barely wide enough on the 7D. Add the fact you get macro thrown in... oh damn...wait... is the Sigma EX DG 20mm F1.8 a EFS lens?

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

I agree with all of your points and that is why, even when I DO get me 7d, the 5dmkii won't be going anywhere.

 

[hudson]

Oh and the Sigma 20mm F1.8 should look very nice indeed on the 5D, whilst it is barely wide enough on the 7D. Add the fact you get macro thrown in... oh damn...wait... is the Sigma EX DG 20mm F1.8 a EFS lens?

It is a an EF lens, but the vingetting on the 5D is pretty extreme at f/1.8. And the focus mechanism is not as nice as Canon's FTM. Here is a shot wide open:

 

[BradM]

I am about to make an experimental leap from a much loved and hated GH1 to either a Canon 5D or 7D. But I still think full frame is the way to go.

I have some Contax Zeiss lenses. These will look at their best on a full frame sensor and the 28mm Distagon will actually look wide.

All the top-end footage I have seen from the 5D looks more cinematic than the top end GH1 stuff. I like full frame.

I have a 10-20mm Canon EFS, which is designed for a 1.6x crop sensor. At 10mm it won't cover full frame. Will it at 20mm?

The low light performance of the 5D also means I can save money on lenses, I don't have to buy as fast - and I don't have to buy as wide. To get a 24mm equiv. on the GH1 costs an arm and a leg.

Oh and the Sigma 20mm F1.8 should look very nice indeed on the 5D, whilst it is barely wide enough on the 7D. Add the fact you get macro thrown in... oh damn...wait... is the Sigma EX DG 20mm F1.8 a EFS lens?

A have the 85, 35, 28 ZF's and they all look spectacular on the 5D.

As a test I threw on a sigma 10-20 EX which is for the 1.6 crop... it vignettes fairly badly at 20 ( even when at only f5.6, its max at 20mm ) but covers the full frame. At 10... nope, but does kinda instantly look like the skateboard fisheye treatment :grin:

The canon 17-40 f4 L looks wonderful on the 5D

 

[yoclay]

What is of even greater concern is that the vignetting is causing circular banding in the photo because of the compression. Is this a result of the compression for this site or on the original image?

 

[commanderspike]

That looks like JPEG compression or even an LCD collaboration issue. My Macbook isn't that great with subtle colour variations for certain situations.

The way the vignette is handled in a ugly manner by the JPEG compression doesn't help with that sample pic - but I am sure that will be avoidable out of the camera in HQ JPEG or in RAW format. I am actually quite pleased how far the coverage goes for the 20mm Sigma F1.8 EF althogh kinda defies the point of having a nice fast wide when it performs much better closed down. Sometimes I like the vignette look but the sharpness isn't great at the corners. But then I can always crop 1080p to 720p video, certainly same goes for the huge 22MP stills.

I have the Contax Yashica Zeiss (Not the later ZF / ZS etc. ones) 85MM F1.4, 28mm 2.8 and a few more. Those are gonna be my main lenses on the 5D. I am just curious to know how the 10-20mm Canon EFS goes. Can't seem to find much on Flickr, they're all of the Sigma variation which isn't as good.

Any suggestions for a cheap 20 or 24mm lens with full frame coverage? I don't intend to get the expensive F4 24-105 L kit lens. The only thing missing now is IS... what is the cheapest option for a 24-105 alternative (zoom, IS, full frame)... it doesn't have to be a Canon

I want to get a chance to try out full frame, before I make my mind up over the 7D in November when I'm gonna try and pick it up in Japan.

So for now, 7D and it's 1.6x crop factor can go the way of the dustbin. I am not that convinced that moving away from full frame is a good idea. The crop factor on the GH1 was a pain in the ass.

 

[Jay Birch]

If I were you, I would wait untill the 7D is officially released... as I expect that will be the time a 5DII firmware will be released. If it doesn't happen then, it never will.

If no firmware appears, you get a clearer idea of what sacrifices you need to make... mainly full frame 30p or cropped 24p/60p.

I have a pretty strong belief that we will see at least 24p and possibly 720/60p on the 5DII within the next few weeks though. Then, if the rumours are true about a RAW video module, we could have close to a perfect camera.

 

[commanderspike]

The rumours are very strong.

There is no smoke without fire and the timing is also good for a firmware update. One year on from the release and timed to strengthen Canon's flagship against their own 7D. I think it makes sense from so many angles and surely if they have indeed been testing 24p on the 5D (i.e. on the set of Iron Man 2) for this long, they would make it public soon and not make it a 7D only feature or a chargeable upgrade. The 5D is their flagship and they need to keep it on top of the 7D.

 

[Barry_Green]

Rumors or no rumors, the words from the company are very clear:
If you're a filmmaker, the 5D is not the camera you want. That's what they said.

In fact, anyone looking into this decision must immediately run to see Tim Smith's presentation to the Digital Cinema Society. It's one of the most frank, interesting, and bold presentations I think I've ever seen from a salesman. With the boldness of how he tells people "don't buy this camera", I'd think a lot of organizations would want to fire him. But he probably earned undying loyalty by being so forthright.

Tim Smith is the Product Manager for Digital Imaging for Canon, Inc. In other words, he's pretty much the top boss of all camera product lines, the equivalent of Jan Crittenden Livingston of Panasonic.

Here are some key quotes:

Spoken to the filmmakers: "Nobody in this room really wants a 5D Mark II."

"We tested against Panavision, Red, the F-23, F-35, and in pretty much every case, we lost. But we were thousands of dollars less."

"We get it -- you guys are interested in this camera. We're making plans to make you happier. We're not ignoring the input we're getting from you guys. We read the boards..."

"We didn't build this for you guys. We built this for still guys. At $2600 I can get away with, but when we start producing more expensive cameras ... IF we start producing more expensive cameras... I'll lose that excuse." The strong implication here was that there will be a future, more-expensive full-frame designed-for-cinema camera and also that it won't be 8-bit, it'll be 10-bit.

"This camera is a 'workaround' camera. There's no question. We understand that and we accept that. The best description I've ever heard ... this camera was like meeting a beautiful, flirtatious woman, only to find out that she's your cousin. So get used to dating your cousin with this one.

Someone asked him about "if and when 24p comes to the 5D", and his response was pretty plain: it isn't going to. "I don't find it likely. These guys could surprise us... but the camera in my opinion, off the record, it's not likely that we can do that... I don't see that as likely. Anything's possible, but that one's not probable... It's also unlikely that 24 frame will not exist on future products -- otherwise we'd be insane. 30 was right for the person we built it for, 24 wasn't considered. It was designed specifically for delivering video on the web... (which is why the Europe version doesn't have 25p either). I find it unlikely that we're gonna get to 24."

On firmware updates: There isn't one that I know about. Obviously the biggest one was to add manual controls for exposure... I've been with Canon for 20 years -- that was something I would have bet money on that we wouldn't do. It's just not like us to change the features on a product after it's out -- we save that for the next one. But, because of the demand, and the need of filmmakers, we did do that. So... would there be a firmware update that would change the feature set, vs. just fixing bugs? We're always firmware updating if there's bugs, but... for a feature change? It's not in the works that I know of." He basically at that point referred people over to Tramm Hudson.

"No possibilities for raw in this camera. It wasn't designed for it... The heat, to put out raw, off a chip that size... would take different engineering."

Also, his advice is to USE UDMA CARDS. Don't use non-UDMA cards; banding and other artifacts can happen on non-UDMA cards.

What I take from this: do not count on any future firmware updates. The 5D is not for filmmakers. They are designing products (like the 7D) that are aimed at that group. They have no intentions to update the 5D to compete with the 7D. The 5D is what it is -- a photojournalists camera, that filmmakers can work around. They know what we want, and they know the 5D isn't it, but they're teasing that they're going to build what we want.

 

[ydgmdlu]

The rumours are very strong.

Yet, no substantial or credible-looking leaks. (Remember the leaks in the week or two before the 7D announcement?) Just hearsay and conjecture.

I think it makes sense from so many angles

What angles?

and surely if they have indeed been testing 24p on the 5D (i.e. on the set of Iron Man 2) for this long,

A big IF.

The 5D is their flagship and they need to keep it on top of the 7D.

No they don't. If you look carefully, you'll see that the 7D is already the best DSLR that Canon offers, except that it's not full frame. It has many more and better hardware features (not just firmware features) than any other EOS digital camera. All of these features are far more compelling to the cameras' primary audience (still photographers) than video frame rates. In order to keep the 5D on top of the 7D, Canon would have to completely reengineer the 5D. When the 5D Mark II was announced, it trumped the 1Ds Mark III (which is still considered Canon's top-of-the-line DSLR) in almost every way except for form factor.

 

[commanderspike]

Wow you guys are seriously underestimating the full frame aspect of the 5D. It's a HUGE advantage over the 7D when working with 35mm DSLR lenses.

It's all about the lenses.

Also the codec is better than the GH1 and it's full frame. That does it for me. Add manual control and Tramm Hudson's film maker targeted firmware hacks and I'm there, I'm moving over.

In my opinion the 7D does not have anything special over the 5D. 720p 60p isn't that special accept for slow mo. 24p isn't that special. It's all very nice and I may well end up with a 7D but the 1.6x crop factor destroys my Zeiss lenses in the same way that the 2x crop on the GH1 does.

The footage on Vimeo form the 5D is a long way ahead of the GH1 and dare I say it even the 7D although we've not seen very much from that one yet. The 5D's footage has incredible colour rendition and dynamic range. The low light performance is better than both the GH1 and 7D.

Why sacrifice full frame for a dedicated video switch on the back of the body?

I've been highly critical of the 5D's usability in the past and the 7D does very very little to address this. So if I'm gonna make the usability sacrifice moving to the 5D over the GH1 for video, then the sacrifice has to be sweetened by some pretty major image quality attributes. And I believe that's what a full frame sensor offers when paired with DSLR lenses, compared to a APS-C camera.

 

[commanderspike]

Yet, no substantial or credible-looking leaks. (Remember the leaks in the week or two before the 7D announcement?) Just hearsay and conjecture.

Canon didn't have to add manual controls either. But they did, because of the demand.

The demand for 24p on the 5D is huge and Canon might want to maintain the 5D's value (and sales) in the face of the 7D's multiple frame rates.

The 5D has kept it's retail price very well and demand for it is still very high. They need to maintain that for as long as possible. But having said that, if Canon keep updating the 5D with nice features, in the long run that may prevent some people buying the 7D.

I don't think the sources of the 24p rumours aren't credible ones. They come from filmmaker professionals, studios and Vincent Laforet.

 

[Barry_Green]

Canon has already said that they don't add features through firmware, and that the 5D's manual controls was the exception, and not to expect anything else. The 5D is aimed at a different market than the 7D. The 5D does what it does, and does it very well. It doesn't have to do what the 7D does.

The 5D is a still camera, with photojournalists in mind. The 7D is aimed more at the filmmaker. Different market.

 

[Barry_Green]

Wow you guys are seriously underestimating the full frame aspect of the 5D. It's a HUGE advantage over the 7D when working with 35mm DSLR lenses.

I don't think we're underestimating it. We're looking at what's offered -- a $2700 product without 24p, or a $1700 product with 24p -- and in addition cine frame size and slow motion. The 7D costs a lot less and does more that most filmmakers would want.

Also the codec is better than the GH1 and it's full frame.

Near as I can tell, the codec is exactly the same as the GH1, just with higher bandwidth allocated to it. It's still h.264 and it's still long-GoP and it's still without B-frames.

Some frames posted on another section showed muddy trees that look just like the GH1's, although the clip specifically said it'd been recompressed so not to judge it on that. I am intrigued to see you get your hands on a Canon, to test for mud; I'd like to see how much of an improvement there is. I do expect an improvement, but I expect that the same issues will still be there, just to a lesser degree.

Why sacrifice full frame for a dedicated video switch on the back of the body?

Has anyone said "man, I want a 7D just for that video switch!" I haven't heard anyone saying that.

What I hear is: 24p, native pulldown-free recording, cinema frame size, slow-mo, and $1,000 less. Those are the compelling arguments. If none of those things matter to you, then the 5D is, I'm sure, going to suit you just fine.

 

[Isaac_Brody]

In fact, anyone looking into this decision must immediately run to see Tim Smith's presentation to the Digital Cinema Society. It's one of the most frank, interesting, and bold presentations I think I've ever seen from a salesman. With the boldness of how he tells people "don't buy this camera", I'd think a lot of organizations would want to fire him. But he probably earned undying loyalty by being so forthright.

This is a great presentation, hadn't seen it till now.

http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/content.php?page=Lighting Workshop

I'm impressed that they're listening and I think the 7D is proof of that.

 

[commanderspike]

What I hear is: 24p, native pulldown-free recording, cinema frame size, slow-mo, and $1,000 less. Those are the compelling arguments. If none of those things matter to you, then the 5D is, I'm sure, going to suit you just fine.

The 7D is not a massive improvement on the 5D. I just don't buy the hype.

24p is nothing special.
Slow mo is a minor feature and 720p only.
Cinema frame size is a none-feature altogether in my opinion, because what's the point of having a cine frame size on a camera you are using 35mm photography lenses with?
$1000 less, well that depends on your market, your country and your currency so that isn't a compelling reason for me. 5D £1500, 7D £1200 and probably in very short supply for a few months.

Yeah it's great. It's great. But it's not the HUUUGE LEAP for filmmakers some make it out to be over the 5D.

What dictates the look of your image more?

- Contax Zeiss Distagon 28mm on a full frame sensor?
- Or the advantage of 24p over 30p?

I know which one I'd choose, and that's before I even mention low light.

 

[Barry_Green]

Then go right ahead. But your needs may not match others' needs.

24p may be nothing special to you, but to many of us it is THE killer feature.

Slow mo may be a "minor feature" to you, but it helped to sell something like 60,000 HVXs. People like it and they want it.

And cinema frame size may be a deterrent to you, but many of us prefer it.

And, saving $1,000 is a big feature to lots and lots of people.

As far as your question about full-frame vs. 24p -- you are obviously free to set your own priorities, but I'd say that the hundreds of thousands, nay, probably millions, of small-sensor 24p cameras (DVX, HVX, HPX, HV20-30-40, XHA1/XLH1, V7U, HD100/200/250, SD100, etc) have proven far more appealing to more folks than the number of large-sensor non-24p cameras have.

There's room for everyone in the market, which is why there are multiple products out there.

As for my own prediction, I predict that by this time next year, the number of DVXUser members using a 7D instead of a 5D? At least 4 to 1. Probably more like 10 to 1.

 

[commanderspike]

LOL.

The footage is all I care about, and for me it makes no sense to run these incredible lenses from Zeiss on a 1.6x crop or 2.0x crop sensor.

Let's see where the best footage comes from in the future. I'd say it'll be shared equally between the 5D and the 7D but the 5D will have an edge purely because of it's full frame sensor exploiting more of the image circle and it's low light performance, plus superior dynamic range.

Barry, I accept your points, of course I do. People have different needs and I am not rubbishing the 7D for a moment. But there is a lot of hyperbole about regarding it's supposed advantages over the 5D and it strikes me that a lot of people have a lot of hope invested in the 7D and are blinding themselves to a little bit of cold reality. The 5D Mark II has superior image quality. The 7D does nothing to fix the 5D's usability issues. The GH1 is still the most progressive camera going into the future and the GH2 might be mega. But until then, I am going to get aquatinted with the 5D before I consider the 7D because I don't like the idea of having all the disadvantages of working with cropped frame sensors and 35mm Zeiss lenses, like on the GH1 whilst loosing all of the GH1's usability.

 

[Barry_Green]

But that begs the point -- if the footage is all you care about, why shoot on a DSLR that Alan Roberts of the BBC didn't even bother to test, once he shot a zone plate on it?

And the answer is, as it always must be: quality at a price point. The price point is paramount. If you wanted the best image, you'd shoot on an Arri D21. If you can't afford that, you'd choose an HPX3700 or a Red One. And if you can't afford that... on and on, down to the 5D's price point.

The 5D and the 7D have some serious video quality issues, mainly moire, aliasing, and jello. The GH1 has its issues, including streaking and occasional mud. We put up with them because of the price point.

Good luck with the 5D, I hope it delivers everything you're looking for. In a thread entitled "7D? Pah", I'm just pointing out that there are many very good reasons that the 7D will likely be the preferred choice between the two, if for no other reason than price (but I think lots of people will find the inclusion of 24p and 60p to be compelling; you on the other hand will prefer the extra sensitivity and dynamic range and fov of the full-frame sensor).

 

[ydgmdlu]

commanderspike, you sound like you've already made up your mind, so there's no need to discuss this further. Go buy a 5D and shoot great footage.

The problem here is that while you may not be "rubbishing the 7D," you are rubbishing potential 7D owners' reasons for preferring that camera. You seem to be making some negative assumptions/assertions of how other people think and what they want. That's rather uncalled-for. We wouldn't argue with you if the 5D truly suited your needs better.

What exactly was the point of this thread anyway? This is a 5D forum; people here are already sold on the camera. It's not like they needed you to point them back in the right direction.