7D... No need to abandon ship

[Barry_Green]

but the 7D is supposed to overcome these problems and I'd say event shooters who are interested in a vDSLR but skipped the GH1 thanks to the lack of versiatlity in non-controlled situations will be very disappointed.

Welcome to our world... with every product, there's always SOMETHING that isn't perfect about it. I can just see now, folks screaming "WHY CANON, WHY!??!" We all have to just get used to it, no product is perfect. If you need longer-than-12-minute record times, the 7D is simply out of the running. But, in exchange, we get no pulldown in 24p (thank heavens) and, hopefully, a more resilient codec. And, fingers crossed, a Magic Lantern hack for all the rest of the goodies -- audio levels, zebras, and whatnot.

I would think the GH1 would be the far preferable choice for event shooters, what with having the capability to autofocus during video mode, plus the multiple-hours record capability (I think it's 4 hours on a 32GB card).

 

[BradM]

For those who worked with film or with P2 cards from a few years ago the 12 minute time is easy to work around. It makes shooting event work more difficult and requires two cameras to have a continuous workflow, but it's still much quicker than shooting film. It really is just a matter of hitting the record button again when the 4 gig mark is reached.

great point!!! I been meaning to say something about this and as a former hvx and ex1 owner I can say that people are under some sort of delusion that a 12 minute limit is something unusual. Actually to the contrary... limits are the norm if you have used any of the Card based pro and prosumer systems. Pretty much only consumer and tape based cameras had the ability to simply record at will for 30 - 60 minutes or longer.

 

[Eddy Robinson]

That is correct Barry. But for sake of argument I'd say a GH2 is an obvious event and coming soon to a rumours website near you

I'm sure, but let's be honest, the GH1 has just come out, there won't be a direct successor in less than a year. You are right that there are numerous ergonomic benefits and I still think it's a very fine camera - but it's also true that the 7d is really, really impressive in its own right.

It's a challenge for Panasonic in that the price difference between the two cameras is narrow enough that many people will pay a bit more for the higher bitrate and codec simplicity. I look forward very much to seeing a shootout between the two - and who knows, Panasonic may respond with an aggressive price cut - they're a sufficiently big company to sacrifice some short-term profit for greater long-term market share.

 

[Eddy Robinson]

delusion that a 12 minute limit is something unusual

...still more than you'd get from a 400 foot roll of 16mm film. For narrative filmmaking this isn't really an issue - I'm sure I'm not the only person that enjoys the short break when it's time to switch mags :grin:

The GH1 remains very strong for more traditional videography - events, documentary and other on-the-run situations where flexibility and quantity is more important than pure image quality - and lets not forget that the GH1 quality is still waaaaay ahead of
DVX stuff.

 

[BradM]

The GH1 remains very strong for more traditional videography - events, documentary and other on-the-run situations where flexibility and quantity is more important than pure image quality - and lets not forget that the GH1 quality is still waaaaay ahead of
DVX stuff.

ya the GH1 is a dream for sure compared to most in the event dep. :thumbup:

 

[Ben_B]

Welcome to our world... with every product, there's always SOMETHING that isn't perfect about it. I can just see now, folks screaming "WHY CANON, WHY!??!" We all have to just get used to it, no product is perfect. If you need longer-than-12-minute record times, the 7D is simply out of the running. But, in exchange, we get no pulldown in 24p (thank heavens) and, hopefully, a more resilient codec. And, fingers crossed, a Magic Lantern hack for all the rest of the goodies -- audio levels, zebras, and whatnot.

I would think the GH1 would be the far preferable choice for event shooters, what with having the capability to autofocus during video mode, plus the multiple-hours record capability (I think it's 4 hours on a 32GB card).

I agree completely. I just was noting that in some of the other threads on the 7D there are a lot of people bashing the Gh1 for some of it's shortcomings, and when myself and others explain why they're not problems for narrative shooting they go "oh well I'm an event shooter." I think the Gh1 is the better event camera...they don't...they've convinced themselves that the 7D is...but for some reason seem to be overlooking these major short comings. I agree that event shooters should be more interested in the GH1...I'm just saying, somewhat circumstantially, that some of them don't seem to be...and that they probably don't know what they're talking about

Personally I never have a need to shoot more than 12 minutes continuous. The closest stuff I've ever done to event filming is lecture filming, wherein I prefer a 2 camera setup anyway (one with static wide shot, the other manned to get the board, etc...) but I have a Gh1 and love it so it's a mute point anyway...and as of right now I don't even own a card larger than 4gb (which, to be fair, is like 30 minutes on a Gh1.)

I was just saying that the 7D is not the answer for event shooters that some in other threads have made it out to be, as obvious as this seems to all of us here. Personally I don't feel that any DSLR really is, at least in a single-cam setup...but the GH1 comes the closest.

Plus after filling up harddrive after harddrive doing P2 production, the small file size of the AVCHD cards (at least for backup/archive) are much easier to deal with.

 

[studio1972]

The GH1 hasn't been out for very long. Just because a new (maybe better) camera comes out doesn't make you existing camera any worse than it was a few months ago when you bought it. If it was great then, surely it is still great now. Stop worrying about it!

As for event shooters not knowing what they are talking about. I would imagine they know what's important for them more then you do? Maybe they want to take stills as well as video, and the 5d/7d are both excellent options for that, although not much use for filming an entire ceremony etc. (a purpose built video camera is obviously best for that). Maybe they are doing 'fusion' photography and only need a few short video clips?

 

[Barry_Green]

Yeah, I don't get the attitudes... 7D certainly has some bonuses, but for an event shooter I would think it's completely not the product you'd want. For a filmmaker shooting 1080/24p, yes, I definitely see the appeal, especially in the workflow aspect... but for event shooting? What are they thinking would be the advantages over a GH1?

I've done my share of live coverage, mainly convention work back in Vegas, and if I had to choose between these two there's no doubt I'd go with the GH1 just based on specs alone.

Stills? The GH1 shoots plenty fine stills. If someone needs primarily a still camera with occasional snippets of video, sure, the 7D would excel at that. But if they're looking for primarily a video camera, and occasional stills, I'd think the HMC40 or GH1 would be the far preferable tool.

 

[studio1972]

Yeah, I don't get the attitudes... 7D certainly has some bonuses, but for an event shooter I would think it's completely not the product you'd want. For a filmmaker shooting 1080/24p, yes, I definitely see the appeal, especially in the workflow aspect... but for event shooting? What are they thinking would be the advantages over a GH1?

I've done my share of live coverage, mainly convention work back in Vegas, and if I had to choose between these two there's no doubt I'd go with the GH1 just based on specs alone.

Stills? The GH1 shoots plenty fine stills. If someone needs primarily a still camera with occasional snippets of video, sure, the 7D would excel at that. But if they're looking for primarily a video camera, and occasional stills, I'd think the HMC40 or GH1 would be the far preferable tool.

I think the 7d/5d are really aimed at this market:

http://www.photofusiontour.com/

The fact they might be of use to indi film makers is probably a nice bonus to them, but I would guess photographers outnumber them 100:1 at least.

I'm sure the GH1 makes nice stills, but not like the 5d or even the 7d I would wager. And you have to remember the mindshare Canon already has with photographers and that they probably have all the lenses already. Plus a GH1 is obviously a consumer camera (in appearance) so a wedding photographer couldn't turn up with that, the wedding guests would likely have better gear!

 

[Ben_B]

Yeah, I don't get the attitudes... 7D certainly has some bonuses, but for an event shooter I would think it's completely not the product you'd want. For a filmmaker shooting 1080/24p, yes, I definitely see the appeal, especially in the workflow aspect... but for event shooting? What are they thinking would be the advantages over a GH1?

I've done my share of live coverage, mainly convention work back in Vegas, and if I had to choose between these two there's no doubt I'd go with the GH1 just based on specs alone.

Stills? The GH1 shoots plenty fine stills. If someone needs primarily a still camera with occasional snippets of video, sure, the 7D would excel at that. But if they're looking for primarily a video camera, and occasional stills, I'd think the HMC40 or GH1 would be the far preferable tool.

Yeah that's basically what I've been saying about the 5D, and despite the 7D's additional video features it still holds true.

The fact they might be of use to indi film makers is probably a nice bonus to them, but I would guess photographers outnumber them 100:1 at least.

Yeah but for the GH1 it seems to be mostly filmmakers buying it (circumstantial...I have no real statistics here) and I wish that they'd stop ignoring that when talking (or not talking) about features, firmware update, etc.

 

[studio1972]

Yeah but for the GH1 it seems to be mostly filmmakers buying it (circumstantial...I have no real statistics here) and I wish that they'd stop ignoring that when talking (or not talking) about features, firmware update, etc.

You probably know better than me, as I haven't got one. But it seems to me that you would never buy a GH1 purely for stills. It certainly isn't a pro stills camera. It seems like maybe it is designed with budget film making in mind for which it seems pretty well suited.

Conversely, many (possibly most) 5d/7d buyers will never use the video functions in anger. I have personally heard many wedding photographers complaining that they don't want video and they wonder if it is adding unnecessary cost to their cameras!

 

[Barry_Green]

You probably know better than me, as I haven't got one. But it seems to me that you would never buy a GH1 purely for stills. It certainly isn't a pro stills camera. It seems like maybe it is designed with budget film making in mind for which it seems pretty well suited.

You can get almost the exact same camera as the G1, for quite a bit less, so yes it seems unlikely that someone would buy the GH1 purely for stills. Not that there's anything wrong with its stills, but you could get the G1 for a lot less. The GH1 is all about the video...

Conversely, many (possibly most) 5d/7d buyers will never use the video functions in anger. I have personally heard many wedding photographers complaining that they don't want video and they wonder if it is adding unnecessary cost to their cameras!

Probably very true. I expect that the stills shooters vs. the video shooters will be some absurdly high ratio, like at least 10:1.

 

[studio1972]

Probably very true. I expect that the stills shooters vs. the video shooters will be some absurdly high ratio, like at least 10:1.

My other half is a photographer and I do the marketing for both of us. There are maybe 5-6 videographers in the local area, and many dozes of photographers, 10:1 is probably about right for weddings. You see a huge amount of keen amateur photographers as well, some have many thousands of pounds of gear (1ds mkIII, many L lenses etc.).

 

[filmmaker's gang]

and we can already see some 7D weaknesses in the footage.

like what?

 

[filmmaker's gang]

I'm happy for the 7D competition, because it just means that the GH2 or whatever it's called needs to be that much better. It needs a serious implementation of AVCHD or something else that won't fall apart when a lot of detail is in the frame. And dammnit this GH2 needs video out. I still can't believe they messed that up because that makes using the GH1 on professional gigs and films a huge pain in the ass. :huh:

well said.

 

[commanderspike]

But with all due respect to the 7D's amazing image quality, some people are speaking like there is a chasm between the two, and this isn't true. All the GH1 needs is a better implementation of AVCHD to catch up.

A good implementation of AVCHD, even like that found on most good consumer camcorders, is surely not that hard to do and we may even see it in a firmware update for the GH1.

But Canon need to start afresh completely with it's 'great' codec. Why? Because I simply don't believe that 4GB 12 minute Quicktime files are a practical recording format which is gonna last into the future. They need to change this and don't forget remove the mirror box completely, along with putting a very good EVF in there. Canon's market is mainly stills and it's the expectations of photographers which is preventing the 7D's leap into GH1 levels of video hybrid technology. They expect, and rightly so, an optical view finder.

What I expect will happen is that Canon develop a new video format using it's large format DSLR CMOS sensor, but in a video form factor.

Otherwise, Panasonic are not only going to steal a march in the hybrid market but in the pro-video camera market too.

Yes it's a fact that the GH1's AVCHD codec was a disappointment, but there is nothing revolutionary about the 7D that is going to make me jump ship.

 

[Isaac_Brody]

like what?

Can't say this for certain cause I haven't seen a lot of raw footage but there may be some aliasing issues. Won't know till I see more but from what's floating out there's some aliasing. Is it more than GH1 aliasing? I don't know. Does it bother me so far? No.

 

[Isaac_Brody]

Yes it's a fact that the GH1's AVCHD codec was a disappointment, but there is nothing revolutionary about the 7D that is going to make me jump ship.

Better codec, 24/25P switchable, 50/60P switchable, APS-C, live video out for monitoring, 1699 for body only. On paper it already does plenty that the GH1 can't, and of course there are things the GH1 can do that the 7D can't touch.

Also, think back two years ago to where we were and you realize just how big a revolution this is. I didn't think that two years later I could spend less than 2K on a Super 35mm 24P interchangeable camera. It's easy to take this for granted but we are in the middle of a huge change in the camera industry. Red started that sea change and the big players took notice and have followed their lead.

Every one of these cameras is a revolution, especially for those used to shooting with adaptors and a griptruck worth of equipment. Shooting relatively clean 800 and 1200 iso footage is a huge revolution. And we are incredibly lucky to have access to this technology at such a low pricepoint. Five years ago it was normal to spend $4000 on a dvx100, and a few years later $6000 on an hvx. And now we're complaining about spending 1500 - 2K on a GH1 or 7D. It's all about perspective.

 

[Ozpeter]

I suspect that we're in a two(?) year period where video on DSLR will be the way to go if you're on a budget. Meanwhile, development of normal form-factor video cameras having the attributes that make DSLR video currently attractive will be underway and we'll see something like Ben's famous mockup at around the $5000 (??) mark, and suddenly the DSLR approach will be for those who can't afford the (not colossally more expensive) real thing. Can anyone point to any technical hurdle to be overcome? As far as I can see there's none.

The advantage of a DSLR-format video camera over a traditional format video camera with the same specs (when it comes, including the same ability to interchange lenses) will purely be compact size, and that will only be relevant in certain situations.

So development of DSLR for film-makers may actually not happen, because the market may disappear very quickly when traditional format devices with DSLR-competitive capabilitiies arrive. I'd predict that video on DSLR will continue to be aimed at those with a foot in both the photo and video camps wanting to not carry two devices, and the needs of film-makers will be met by other styles of device.

 

[studio1972]

I suspect that we're in a two(?) year period where video on DSLR will be the way to go if you're on a budget. Meanwhile, development of normal form-factor video cameras having the attributes that make DSLR video currently attractive will be underway and we'll see something like Ben's famous mockup at around the $5000 (??) mark, and suddenly the DSLR approach will be for those who can't afford the (not colossally more expensive) real thing. Can anyone point to any technical hurdle to be overcome? As far as I can see there's none.

The advantage of a DSLR-format video camera over a traditional format video camera with the same specs (when it comes, including the same ability to interchange lenses) will purely be compact size, and that will only be relevant in certain situations.

So development of DSLR for film-makers may actually not happen, because the market may disappear very quickly when traditional format devices with DSLR-competitive capabilitiies arrive. I'd predict that video on DSLR will continue to be aimed at those with a foot in both the photo and video camps wanting to not carry two devices, and the needs of film-makers will be met by other styles of device.

Isn't what you're talking about basically a Red 1, but cheaper? Like the Scarlet if it ever happens. Not sure if that was what you were getting at, or if you expect another company to release something similar?