7D... No need to abandon ship

commanderspike

commanderspike

Carbonite Member
I've been away from the forum for a while and missed the opening 7D debates but I've been following what's been going on and would have had the chance to try out the 7D in Berlin at the IFA show if it wasn't for a swollen ankle, from being bitten by strange bugs in a forest shooting a music video!!

I have invested a lot in my GH1 system, with countless lenses, adapters and a steadicam designed for smaller systems. Will I sell it all and get a 7D?

No!

The 7D is a fantastic camera but I honestly think the GH2 will be better, less traditional and more progressive. Also, I'd miss the rotating LCD of the GH1 if I jumped to the 7D, and the GH1's lightweight small form factor which is important when you're trying to balance it on a steadicam.

I'd also miss the AF tracking function. Okay, it messes up sometimes, but there were times in the music video shoot where it was very useful, along with face detection, to keep track of the singer as she moved around the scene.

The ONLY downside to the GH1 is it's codec, banding and the fact AF tracking only works with the slow (F4) kit lens. Low light performance is still pretty amazing with a fast enough lens.

I saw the criticism of Philip Bloom earlier here, and thought it was uncalled for. The 7D is indeed a GREAT camera and is gonna be a very desirable video camera despite still having some of the usability quirks of the 5D Mark II. But it's cheaper, has switchable 24p/25p, and finally has 50p/60p 720p for slow mo. Great. If anyone still doubts Bloom's enthusiasm is genuine, well - the main reason I bought a GH1 in the first place was because of the coverage Bloom gave it on his site and in particular the actual videos he shot with it. Canon fanboy? I don't think so.

But there is no need to panic with regards the 7D. Wait for the GH2 and then make up your mind. Panasonic now have the GF1 out of the way, and I remember in an interview they said the GH2 would be in full swing only once that camera was done. I can't wait to see what they come up with.
 
Respect your thoughts but the problem here is simple. We have NO GH1's!
Where are they? You're speaking of a GH2. I just want to see a GH1. I'll have a 7d before a GH1 based on simple availability.
But yes both probably are very nice cameras.
 
Stop begging for the GH2 lets beg for a firmware update :D

Agreed, the 7D seems nice but I in no way regret my GH1 purchase. Great ergonomics, great price, great image, great lens support, and I've already done a few little projects on it and am going to be doing a whole lot more between now and when I would've been able to get a 7D anyway.

I was not convinced on the vDSLR thing, in fact I used to argue against the concept, in favor of waiting for interchangeable lens video cameras to be available at lower price points. The GH1 changed my mind. The 7D would not have....same old problems.

For a price lower than the HVX, the EX-1, or for that matter, the 7D, I got a great camera, with a great lens, with money left over for all kinds of lenses and other accessories.

I got a camera of my own despite the fact that I'm not really looking to be a DP: because I wanted something that would allow me to get out there and make films, not just sit around, dependent on an equipment or crew's schedule to tell me when and what films I could make, and having a Gh1 has fulfilled this a whole lot better than not having an HVX, or an EX-1, or a 7D has.
 
Alan Bradley said:
Respect your thoughts but the problem here is simple. We have NO GH1's!
Where are they? You're speaking of a GH2. I just want to see a GH1. I'll have a 7d before a GH1 based on simple availability.
But yes both probably are very nice cameras.
Click to expand...

It's not september. From what I've seen on the other thread most Panny direct orders are being filled within a few weeks.

People earlier in the summer waited months to get this camera.
 
The GH2 is currently under development, it's an inevitability.

This thread isn't about availability problems and I am sure you will have difficulty getting your hands on a 7D for a good few months, believe me!

Agreed Ben about firmware update but I don't think it's possible, it's a hardware speed / capability issue in my opinion but I wait to be proved wrong! The GH1 will definitely lose market share to the 7D amongst pros if Panasonic don't fix the codec issues. But like I said, I don't think there is a need to jump ship to the 7D until Canon fix their usability issues and remove the mirror-box.
 
I'm not sure the codec issue could be fixed with a firmware update. Perhaps the speed of the GH1's image processor(s) is what made them choose 17mbps? If it's not hardware related, a firmware update taking it to 24mbps would be awesome.
 
Regardless of the codec I'd like to see a firmware update for 1080 24pn, for composite out during recording, for HDMI out liveview preview or during recording if possible...might be a limitation of the hardware, etc.
 
commanderspike said:
The GH2 is currently under development, it's an inevitability.
Click to expand...
For clarification, let's say that there has been no announcement and no official statement from the company about any GH2. What we're saying here is that obviously the company is working on the next product, they're constantly engaged in research and development on new products, and it's obvious that there will be another model coming out. Whether that's six months or two years from now, nobody knows. Whether it'll be called "GH2" or not, nobody knows.
 
That is correct Barry. But for sake of argument I'd say a GH2 is an obvious event and coming soon to a rumours website near you :) as sure as there will be a 7D... oh...

My main point though is concerning loyalty to one system. A system needs investment in lenses, etc. and working techniques to get the best out of it. I think the Micro 4/3rds system will win the video sector, because sooner or later Canon and everybody else will have to abandon the mirror box and by that time Panasonic will have had a very very large head start, and the smaller size has many benefits in the video world.

I am not about to throw the whole lot on eBay and get a camera which has significantly less usability without adding expensive equipment like focus rails, view finder adapters, etc.
 
Well put Barry and Commanderspike...

Of course by the time whatever their next product in development is out so to will the 8d, the 1d mk4, the D800 (D700s or whatever is looking likely soon), the 5D mkIII, etc.

All you can really do is get what works best for you at the time, make some good films, and if you have a need to upgrade, upgrade...but there are still people doing stuff on the DVX...or a more apt comparison would be that there's still people doing stuff on the HVX-200 (it's a damn fine camera), despite the HVX-200a, the HPX-170, the HMC-150, and the EX-1.
 
commanderspike said:
My main point though is concerning loyalty to one system. A system needs investment in lenses, etc. and working techniques to get the best out of it.
Click to expand...

I'd be careful about loyalty to one brand or system. This is why I think of the bodies as the expendable element. If you put your money into lenses and filters your main investment doesn't go obsolete. You can always carry your filters and lenses to the next body. And since the tech is changing so quickly your loyalty to one brand will be severely tested if you stick to one brand. (cough, cough, Nikon :) )

4/3 is a pretty good system, but so too is APS-C. This is Super 35 and matches the films we see in theaters and also matches the Red One sensor size.

I needed a GH1 at the beginning of the Summer for some projects but got bit by the backorder bug like everyone else. Come August we all know something new is on the horizon and the 7D has had the six months to watch the GH1's success and hype to improve on two things the GH1 sorely lacks, video out and codec. And it has also the benefit of all the suggestions and complaints that were leveled at the 5D's shortcomings.

I hope Panasonic drops the price of the GH1 or offers body only options. If they offered a body only option for 700 it would be a great deal. I know the kit lens is very good but I'd rather take that 800 that would go to the kit lens and spend it on primes and not be stuck with a 4/3 specific lens that is just geared for the GH1 or Olympus 4/3 line.

Anyway, there's always something better on the horizon. It's comforting, and a pain in the ass when you're the one buying tech on the bleeding edge and something new comes out to halve the value of your investment. That's just a given.

I'm happy for the 7D competition, because it just means that the GH2 or whatever it's called needs to be that much better. It needs a serious implementation of AVCHD or something else that won't fall apart when a lot of detail is in the frame. And dammnit this GH2 needs video out. I still can't believe they messed that up because that makes using the GH1 on professional gigs and films a huge pain in the ass. :huh:
 
Anyone know if the 12 minute record limit in the 7D is just a function of preproduction cameras or is a "feature" of the full version as well...is this a 4gb thing part of using the FAT32 file system?

Man that's really unfortunate.
 
For those who worked with film or with P2 cards from a few years ago the 12 minute time is easy to work around. It makes shooting event work more difficult and requires two cameras to have a continuous workflow, but it's still much quicker than shooting film. It really is just a matter of hitting the record button again when the 4 gig mark is reached.
 
I always understood it the way you just explained it and wondered why folks kept complaining about the time limit on these cams.
 
Ben_B said:
Anyone know if the 12 minute record limit in the 7D is just a function of preproduction cameras or is a "feature" of the full version as well...is this a 4gb thing part of using the FAT32 file system?

Man that's really unfortunate.
Click to expand...

You see, this is a major usability issue of the 7D.

Not just the recording limit but for archiving and editing footage. 12 mins per 4GB. That is so inefficient and huge.

By the time Canon makes baby steps into DSLR AVCHD, Panasonic will have figured out mud totally 100%.
 
Yes, there is no need to "abandon ship": You could just use both! My original plan, when the GH1 was announced, was to replace my 5D Mark II, but then the manual controls update was announced and released, and I changed my mind. I kept my 5D but decided that I would also buy a GH1. With the announcement of the 7D, I briefly considered forgetting the GH1, but the more that I thought about it, the more that I realized that the GH1 offered some benefits that I just couldn't let go. So now I'm getting both a GH1 and a 7D, and I plan to use them to compensate for each other's shortcomings. Neither is close to perfect, but in my mind, neither is really clearly superior to the other.

I'm tired of the put-downs made by both GH1 users and prospective 7D fans, and only a week has passed since the announcement! Seriously, folks, grow up and stop being so childishly defensive of your pet camera! It's only a tool, no need to get emotional. It's not a matter "superiority" or "inferiority." It's as true for this debate as it has been for the 5D vs. GH1 debate. It's different strokes for different folks. But we can all agree, at least, that the Scarlet will be better than them both! :tongue:
 
HVX 1080P footage gets you 1 gig per minute. So the 7D's 12 minutes per 4 gigs is a pretty good deal when you consider that a 16 gig card will get you 48 minutes of footage. Again, for those coming from the P2 realm the workflow and archiving needs are not a new thing to deal with.

Here's one serious area where the 7D will excel and where Panasonic needs to fix for the GH2 or in GH1 firmware. Pulldown. There's no need for pulldown removal for 7D footage. You can ingest to prores for easy editing in Final Cut, or cut the native mov files if your computer is fast enough. Pulldown removal has been a nightmare for the GH1. I spent a good month emailing and talking to Voltaic and Neoscene to get this sorted out and I still see a ton of clips on vimeo with improper pulldown removal. The postside of GH1 editing still involves a lot of hoop jumping to maintain quality through the edit pipeline and this is one area where the 7D will be much easier to handle.

As for archiving, hardrive space is cheap. If you really want to save space you can encode to photojpeg at 75 percent to cutdown on space and avoid the big file sizes of prores.

Both cameras have strengths and weaknesses. We already know the GH1 faults in and out, and we can already see some 7D weaknesses in the footage. Buy based on what you need and remember it's just tech. There's no need to justify your buying choice to anyone else. There is always something better on the horizon.
 
I agree completely about 12gb being a non-issue for narrative filmmaking...the thing is that a lot of the GH1's issues, Mud, banding, (but not general weakness of the codec image quality) etc, are non-issues for narrative filmmaking...but the 7D is supposed to overcome these problems and I'd say event shooters who are interested in a vDSLR but skipped the GH1 thanks to the lack of versiatlity in non-controlled situations will be very disappointed.

As for Pulldown...between that and mud I just shoot 720p/60 and convert to 24p in post....it's easier in my mind than dealing with the 1080p and the pulldown removal..and I think the footage from this camera just generally looks better in 720p. But yes, that is a damn shame. I bet it's fixable with a firmware update...1080/24pn actually involves less data (in terms of pixels per second) than 1080i/24p.
 
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