7D as lil bro to RedOne

F

FUBARFilms

Active member
I've heard many people say that the 5DmkII stands up very well when shot as a B-Cam to the Red. Has anyone tried shooting along side a Red with the 7D? I've wondered how it would stand up since while the 7D is not a full frame sensor like the MkII, it's actually still slightly larger than the Red's sensor.
 
There is a clip posted on Reduser.net where 7D, 5D and Red footage was intercut. It happens to stand up very well there. However,... the circumstances were chosen to favor the 7D and 5D.

http://hdirawworks.com/page2/files/page2-1001-pop.html

Even though you can grade around it the Red One is a native 320 ISO camera. If you put it in extremely low light it struggles much more than the 7D and 5D. Also, the native RAW settings look washed out unless color corrected properly.

On the other hand, the Canons shine in low light and provide a contrasty image. Ordinarily the Red One would blow the doors of the Canons, but under these specific circumstances the Canons lock very good in comparison. The DOF is going to be about the same but slightly narrower in the 7D and 5D as both have bigger sensors.

You should hear the Red people howl. :violin: They just need to get over the idea that the Red is perfect/the best. Its extremely good and a great price point, but other cameras can beat it in certain circumstances. They don't like to hear that though. In well lit scenes the Red One's resolution mops up the Canons. Canon fans don't have a problem with that.
 
wow...thats all I could say!

I am guessing then that the 7D has closer DOF to the Red, since it's sensor is only a little bit larger than the Red's. I'm very glad I sold my D90 for this camera!
 
Yea at the end of the day cameras are just tools, and not everyone knows how to use them properly but when you do their strengths can be greatly appreciated.
 
Scaled down for the internet - they can be intercut. But if displayed on a HDTV or projected, the RED will/should blow the 7D away in image quality and resolution.
 
Duke M. said:
Also, the native RAW settings look washed out unless color corrected properly.
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That is an absolute must. Of course RAW is going to have that look. It's still RAW... lol.

Anyway, I thought this comparison failed for its intended goal. The series of images were to inconsistent to look for consistencies between the two. The only way to see if one can be cut with the other is to have the shots be attempted to be consistent with one another... It was obvious this was not the attempted goal as that wasn't an honest representation of each camera, considering the slow motion kid was grossly mishandled. Doesn't matter if it was 7d or Red, it was clearly in the wrong hands. (I figure it's RED for many obvious reasons.)

The best way to compare if they can be intercut (ie consistancy) is to have them be as consistent as possible. That match up clearly did not have that intention in mind.

It was nice to watch for some reasons but unfortunately did not do a thing as any sort of 'test'. Not even close.



If those shots within the brainwash facility (or whatever that was) was a mix between the two formats, I'd say you'd have a test. But considering how fast it went by within the 'test' I figured it was the same camera. Please clarify if I am wrong.
 
I would like to know which clip is from which camera and to see them all 1080p for comparison. If the hairdryer/brain facility clips are from each camera that would mean something.

I didn't view the test as being one of whether you could manipulate the image enough to they can look nearly alike. If you do enough in post you can work magic. The question is, without playing with them how close are they.

The only ones that I really noticed huge differences and think that I can peg which cameras are which are the black guy on the roof.

On the comment that the Red will automatically blow the others away at 1080p, not necessarily under those conditions on the roof. I actually assume the very first clip on the roof is Red footage, which doesn't look good, but mostly because its under the most difficult circumstances for the Red. I base that assumption on comparisons with other under exposed footage on Reduser.

Face it, the 7D isn't even an EX1 resolutionwise, a bit less than an XH-A1 actually.

The dynamic range of the 7D and Red are probably close. Barry Green tested the DR and came up with 8.5. I've seen several tests between 8-11 for the Red with most likely a 9. The DOFs are very close too.

It doesn't make the 7D magical, or the Red bad, just shows the 7D has some strengths. We all know the Red has the resolution edge by a long shot, as well as superior gradeability. The issue on most 7D users mind given its low resolution is "can the 7D look good enough compared to something great." Red users don't need to feel threatened. Its just a camera for the tiny indies.

They said they'd release a longer, higher resolution version of the clip later.
 
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Duke M. said:
I didn't view the test as being one of whether you could manipulate the image enough to they can look nearly alike. If you do enough in post you can work magic. The question is, without playing with them how close are they.
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Then, perhaps they should not call it an intercut demo. I'm interested in seeing where this road is leading, considering it looks to be a foolhearted attempt at showing something with nothing. Shooting under completely different conditions and lacking simple attempts of matching the cameras for the purpose of intercutting, is without regard for the purpose of the demo; or how I interperted the intentions of the demo.

Without attempting to match, or 'play with' variables such as shooting conditions or settings within the camera, even two identical HVX's could produce two very different images. It is completely irrational to compare the intercut ability of any two cameras or formats in this manner.

I could be mistaken and I await the longer version which has been rumoured to be in the works. I expect the cameras will be intercut and compared within a similar environment or at least with similar settings as to demonstrate their abilities to carry the consistency required within a professional film. There are obvious setbacks between the two formats, such as resolution for instance, but this test still intriques me to see the results when 1080 HD or lower reproductions (such as the web) are necesary. The attraction of using a camera like the 7d stems from special situations where a smaller camera could benefit. For instance stealing shots where a DSLR does not attract much attention, crash-cams, small places or situations where lighterwieght camera is perferred. I would not consider the 7D a substitute for the RedOne under normal narrative shooting conditions such as a B-cam... however for the aforementioned reasons, it has it's appeal.

-Ryan
 
No disrespect Ryan but there is way too much cynacism in your comments regarding this test. On paper, yes, the Red outshines this and many other cameras. But as these folks, who are not just any run of the mill folks, are suggesting one could intercut footage from these cameras if needed. I think of cameras like the HVX, which I don't consider nearly as sharp "looking" as the 7D, intercutting with "Film" and other higher end cameras for years..."on the big screen." Why would it be a problem for a 7D or a 5D? Just because its cheap and easily obtainable to the masses does not disqualitfy it from professional use "beyond the PC/TV." Where I personally think one would see a difference is if you are matching up wide open scenery with lots of DOF. The Red would resolve better. But on bust shots or close ups you wouldn't see much of a difference (IMHO). I think it is a cool idea from these folks to do this. I'm not suprised either...especially since we've seen the photos of Rodney Charters planting a huge cine lens in front of the 7D a couple of weeks back. That told me he at least thought the cam was good for something serious.
 
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Ian-T said:
Where I personally think one would see a difference is if you are matching up wide open scenery with lots of DOF. The Red would resolve better. But on bust shots or close ups you wouldn't see much of a difference (IMHO). I think it is a cool idea from these folks to do this. I'm not suprised either...especially since we've seen the photos of Rodney Charters planting a huge cine lens in front of the 7D a couple of weeks back. That told me he at least thought the cam was good for something serious.
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Well, honestly, yeah you would.

You'll see it in fine detail and hair immediately, and you'll subconciously feel-- so long as you're viewing it at a decent size-- that the RED decimates the 7D and anything sub category.

Just shoot some hair with the 7D and then the RED, you'll see.

Can it be intercut, though? Technically, no. Realistically-slash-real-world-application? Uhhh... of course.

You can cut HV20 footage into RED footage and with the right colorist and care taken in shooting and it would be completely fine.
 
They do have the same sensor size but RED typically has better glass and a far better codec. That said, you can definitely intercut the two if you're willing to accept that they will not look identical to each other.

Noah
 
Here I am admitting I was wrong.

My previous comments had been about the trailer... Apparently, I just found out, they shot a whole movie (?) side by side, and that should offer the results I was speaking of. My misunderstanding stemming from the trailer, was that someone had simply taken footage from a Red film and intercut it with some other random project shot on the DSLR's. I was hoping this wasn't the case, and it isn't.

I look forward to material that actually explains this in an informative way.
 
I just shot 7D as B-cam on a RED shoot last night...

I'll try to post some comparisons when I get a chance. It's definitely doable at lower resolutions... at 1080p a tad more trying....
 
Kholi said:
Well, honestly, yeah you would.

You'll see it in fine detail and hair immediately, and you'll subconciously feel-- so long as you're viewing it at a decent size-- that the RED decimates the 7D and anything sub category.

Just shoot some hair with the 7D and then the RED, you'll see.

Can it be intercut, though? Technically, no. Realistically-slash-real-world-application? Uhhh... of course.

You can cut HV20 footage into RED footage and with the right colorist and care taken in shooting and it would be completely fine.
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Yea just as the Red is a tool, so is the 7d it isn't perfect.
They have their place. I am sure the 7d can be used as a b cam, but it would seem any 1080 camera can be. Like you said Kholl it isn't the camera but the shooter, and the persons who use the equipment.

Red in and of itself can do nothing with out a skilled individual.
 
dantewaters said:
Yea just as the Red is a tool, so is the 7d it isn't perfect.
They have their place. I am sure the 7d can be used as a b cam, but it would seem any 1080 camera can be. Like you said Kholl it isn't the camera but the shooter, and the persons who use the equipment.

Red in and of itself can do nothing with out a skilled individual.
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Well, what I responded to was Ian saying that for Mediums or "busts" you couldn't tell the difference, but you sure could. You can chop any few cameras together if you want. Just on a technical level there is a major difference between RED and 7D. It had nothing to do with the quality of the person behind the camera.

But, yes, always forever and will be what and who is behind and in front of the camera, not the camera itself; especially now.

The same awesome DP (who is not me) shooting the same great content with either camera would probably produce an all around better image/product with the RED, given that all of the shots were setup the same.

I've purchased four (4) EOS 7D's and still own a 5D: Don't shoot the messenger, who's obviously an advocate.
 
To the OP, I am enrolled in the DIR301 - Directing at fxphd this term, and footage for the short made during this class is being shot with both the Red One and Canon 7D.

If you are able I would highly recommend enrolling. The film is actually being made during this term, and throughout the term you can communicate directly with the professors on the forums. They are directly involved, in the field, with issues involving your question, so they can give you some great specifics that they have experienced. We are in the third week, so I think you can still get in.

This is my first term enrolled there, and all I can say is I wish I had started sooner. Send me a PM if I can help you out with anything else, as far as my experience there or questions we may have dealt with in the class.
 
patssle said:
Scaled down for the internet - they can be intercut. But if displayed on a HDTV or projected, the RED will/should blow the 7D away in image quality and resolution.
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Projected, maybe.

1080P, not so much. I shot some stuff with the RED One and a 5D with Nikon primes and when graded most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
 
mcgeedigital said:
Projected, maybe.

1080P, not so much. I shot some stuff with the RED One and a 5D with Nikon primes and when graded most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
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That's basically what I'm talking about though I understand everyone's point.
 
Kholi said:
You can cut HV20 footage into RED footage and with the right colorist and care taken in shooting and it would be completely fine.
Click to expand...

Hey, the HV20 actually resolves about 20% higher than the 7D, and an HFS200 a little more than that so they should be easier. LOL

I'm a fan of resolution (and the HV20), but... I think the manual controls and 'look' of the 7D will often give the 7D a better image.

To paraphrase Maxwell Smart "Canon missed it by this || much."
 
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