7.7.7.7 - the great FS700/FS7/A7s/O7Q puzzle.

ChadN said:
I think it's really cool that you can assign focus to a dial on the hand grip. Is that for real? I wonder how that feels. I'm guessing it only works with E-Mount lenses too? (which i happen to have).
Click to expand...

Of course E-Mount but also the Alpha-Mount with the Sony Adapter work until today.

But we never know what Metabones is doing with their adapters.
All their Canon EF-NEX adaptors won't support AF on video cameras:

  • On FS series (e.g. FS700, FS100), autofocus may be available only in photo mode but not in movie capture mode.

Thats taken from their website: http://www.metabones.com/products/details/MB_SPEF-E-BM2

In the end it's always good to know your lenses and focus by (left) hand. The new handgrip should make
it possible that your left hand never leaves the lens during shooting.
Until today I have to adjust the IRIS on that stupid dial (or push AUTO-IRIS on the FS700 handgrip) sothat
my hand leaves the lens and makes the footage shaky.
I need another lens with proper aperture dial or something like the new handgrip on the FS7 that makes all
my lenses work.
 
+1

Erik Wittbusch said:
Sorry. I never wanted to sound rude...

I think rather the same way - a lot of excitement now. Most of this people will complain why there's no this and that in the future
and that Sony totally failed and be excited by the next big thing from Canon...

In the end the FS7 is one step in the right direction. A one-man-band camera with most of the features that we want integrated
in the body. Basicly it's a kind of EX1/EX3 with S35. I was excited with that cameras too, but never owned one. I rented...

The FS7 now is a milestone for me as I go mostly handheld in documentaries. I need it light and small and ready to go on the
shoulder or chest or on my knees quickly. I want 10bit and better codec than AVCHD (which I still use in 2 long-term projects).
I like to have the "open" mount, that I can use my trusty modded Canon FDs and stabilized zoom lenses like the Canon 24-105
on a speedbooster. I would have liked NP-F batteries and SD-Cards as they are cheap and small. You can always store them in
a save box (mine is even water resistant). I have tons of NP-Fs and don't like to switch.
But this is a little price to pay.

7k Euro here in germany is still a lot of money for me as most of my work isn't paid but heart-driven. Paid jobs are usually with
rented cameras anyway.

Will my footage look better than my FS100 footage?
I really don't think the difference will be huge. But it will give me much more possibilities to hold the camera and get always the
best perpective. Hopefully it's also easier to nail the focus. Expanded focus is nice, but it always jumps to a certain point in your
picture which can't be changed without the help of your left hand. That means camera shake and unusable footage.
I really, really hope, that you can choose expanded focus with your right hand and then move the expanded view to where you need it.
I rarely keep faces in the middle of my frame - I hate it...
Click to expand...
 
Up to 2 years ago I used for about 4 years a Sony HVR-S270 HDV camcorder for corporate video making (mostly on my own). Previous to that I had a Z1, and before that a DSR-S250.
The S270 was brilliant is so many ways: shoulder mount, just the right weight and perfectly balanced, recorded to full size HDV tapes and Compact Flash simultaneously (tapes are a brilliant low cost back-up storage!!), excellent auto lens with full manual overrides including full eng-style crash zoom ability and proper manual long-throw focus, 4-channel XLR audio inputs, long lasting v-mount batteries with onboard d-tap light connection etc etc. Perfect for my needs and customers never complained!

But because I wanted to add something 'extra' to my productions, I was swooned by the low-depth-of-field images produced by DSLRs and so I moved across to using a couple of Canons. I already had various Canon lenses so thought I could make it work. Good images, but what a palava to shoot with!! Totally bad ergonomics, separate audio acquisition, no auto anything (sometimes I need it!) etc etc. For a year I struggled with this set-up.

So along comes the FS700, and I was (again) swooned by the super slo mo, and I thought I could have the best of both worlds (to some degree with a rig), keep and use all my Canon lenses etc. So after a few months of trying different rigs I've now got it to a point where I can use it fairly comfortably in corporate and run 'n gun events/situations, and crucially still all on my own.

But although I love the look of the images it produces, it's still not perfect and I often miss the S270 for the ease-of-use and ergonomics.

The FS7 could well be the answer for me. It's what I wanted from the FS700 originally I guess, but didn't exist until now. But I won't make the rush decision I made when moving from my S270, lesson learned, stick with what I've got until I'm truly convinced to switch!

Sorry for the long (and possibly off-topic) tale!
 
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There's so many valid reasons one would want to operate the fs7 over existing cameras specifically the fs700. The fs7 is everything I wished for in the fs700. Now I own an fs700 but see no discernible reason for me to switch. The fs7 is a better camera, it's also more expensive. If internal 4k was important to me I would switch, ergonomics, yes I would switch, if I was in the market for a new camera and did docs, I wouldn't think twice. The fs7 would be my camera. I figure I can hold out to spring, I wont make any more money with an fs7 at this stage of my career. Though I see myself owning one down the road. It is way more "future proof" (I hate that phrase) than anything out right now and see it as a great doc cam for many years. With that said, It sounds like people here are feeling the need to explain themselves as to why they want the fs7 and some why they don't. Who cares, to each their own. There's a hundred reasons to love the fs7 and hundred reasons to love the fs700, no need to make any excuses, remember technology's that good now, it's not the camera guys ;)
 
I own a FS700, O7Q and (to add another 7) the NEX-7. I use to use the NEX-7 as a B-cam as it was nice and took good still images when that was needed. I eventually bought a BMPCC as a replacement B-cam.

Firstly the FS700 with the O7Q, in my opinion has unleashed the FS700R - it cost me an arm and a leg, but the images I can get out of it are the best, 4K2HD is amazing, RAW formats, and in slo-mo to 240, and all the rest 4k to prores coming. I don't see the benefits of the FS7 yet to make me want to upgrade (I'm happy with that). Unless they offer a decent trade-in option I'll stick with the FS-700.

Secondly, the A7s. I have been waiting for a low M-pix sensor FF camera, I was about to pull the trigger as a new b-cam. My FS700 is great when there is light, but I would love a low light performer like the A7s. But, after using the NEX-7 mirrorless camera as a B-cam and the record time limits they impose on these designs, when you're shooing an interview you have to stop and restart the camera. A big production on set problem for me.

I plan to get rid of my BMPCC and NEX-7 - I am waiting for a VG900 type b-cam (as these don't have a record time cut off) but hoping they release a successor that uses the A7s sensor. The reason these types of camera are good is they are great in the run-and-gun and ergonomic areas that people are mentioning problems with the FS-700. I would rather a VG900 type form factor compared to the FS7 for out in the street and quick pick up and shoot type stuff.

For still photos I'll just get the a7r (and also use that for c-cam when a 3rd is needed)

Unrelated, I'm really looking forward to getting a good quality audio field mixer, like the SD-302 which has got really nice limit/compression and super clean pre-amps to get top quality sound too.

Then I'll feel like my kit is complete for the long haul (along with my other stuff I haven't mentioned). Until light field cameras are all the rage or whatever's next.
 
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GaryinCalifornia said:
I was wondering have you tried the frame burst mode in 4k to get a 120fps and if so what's your opinion of it...
Click to expand...

I haven't actually tried it yet, but I know it will be awesome.

The reason being the only image issues off the camera is when the camera does the pixel binning like in 2K mode (or it's native internal HD compressed recording). Anything coming off the full sensor looks amazing. Eg. 4K Raw, 4k2HD, and what I am guessing 4kprores and 4k120burst.

Mind you, if you can control the lighting the 2K raw can look awesome. You just get artefacts where there is intense highlight contrast.
 
This is pretty cool for the 7Q. Adam Wilt wrote on his FS7 tests

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acqui...king-at-lenses-better-balancing-and-more.html

Really psyched on this as I definitely need RAW from time to time. Shooting a Fashion spot this week for Lifetime and it's all 4K 60fps Macro and close-up shots as they want to really punch in on post. HURRAY for the 7Q! Plus the 240fps 2K RAW to 7Q is definitely nice.

------------------------------- Adam Wrote

The RAW OUT port supplies FS700-formatted (lightly compressed) “raw” video to a compatible recorder (“raw” in quotes because it’s log-encoded using Sony’s S-Log3 curve). The HXR-IFR5/AXS-R5 combo that Art Adams and I used for FS700 raw work can certainly be used, but I plugged in a Convergent Design Odyssey7Q recorder just to see what would happen:


FS7 sending raw to Odyssey7Q: It Just Works
FS7 sending 4K raw to Odyssey7Q: It Just Works
In FS700 RAW mode, recording to 2K or 4K .DNG frames, the 7Q just worked, though it warned that the raw should be S-Log2 encoded “for proper display” (the FS700 uses S-Log2 while the FS7 outputs S-Log3, and the 7Q hasn’t been updated yet for the FS7). Nonetheless, the 7Q displayed the image, allowed a display LUT to be turned on, and recorded clips when I pressed the camera’s trigger: mighty impressive.


The 7Q can also be set up to record ProRes HD from the raw input, but it steadfastly refused to do so for the FS7’s S-Log3-encoded video, insisting (quite rightly) on being fed a gamma it knows what to do with before it “bakes in” a look on compressed recordings.


Convergent Design assures me that the 7Q will fully support the FS7 by the time the FS7 actually ships.
 
Does anyone know what the sensor in the FS7 actually is?? Some are saying it's the same as FS700 but many are saying it's something different, closer to the F5 sensor. Any chance it could resolve an image with less noise and better low light capabilities?
 
zen75 said:
Does anyone know what the sensor in the FS7 actually is?? Some are saying it's the same as FS700 but many are saying it's something different, closer to the F5 sensor. Any chance it could resolve an image with less noise and better low light capabilities?
Click to expand...

SAME sensor as F5. 16bits A/D with 14 stops of DR.

Got the info at IBC from the engineer that's actually behind the FS7. I think it's a pretty trusty source.

Sony couldn't come up with a new sensor in such a short time anyway.

EDIT : thinking about it, they could have thrown the F55 global shutter inside or propose an other FS7 model with it. Probably not upgradable and would have been much more expensive.
 
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gene_can_sing said:
This is pretty cool for the 7Q. Adam Wilt wrote on his FS7 tests

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acqui...king-at-lenses-better-balancing-and-more.html

Really psyched on this as I definitely need RAW from time to time. Shooting a Fashion spot this week for Lifetime and it's all 4K 60fps Macro and close-up shots as they want to really punch in on post. HURRAY for the 7Q! Plus the 240fps 2K RAW to 7Q is definitely nice.

------------------------------- Adam Wrote

The RAW OUT port supplies FS700-formatted (lightly compressed) “raw” video to a compatible recorder (“raw” in quotes because it’s log-encoded using Sony’s S-Log3 curve). The HXR-IFR5/AXS-R5 combo that Art Adams and I used for FS700 raw work can certainly be used, but I plugged in a Convergent Design Odyssey7Q recorder just to see what would happen:


FS7 sending raw to Odyssey7Q: It Just Works
FS7 sending 4K raw to Odyssey7Q: It Just Works
In FS700 RAW mode, recording to 2K or 4K .DNG frames, the 7Q just worked, though it warned that the raw should be S-Log2 encoded “for proper display” (the FS700 uses S-Log2 while the FS7 outputs S-Log3, and the 7Q hasn’t been updated yet for the FS7). Nonetheless, the 7Q displayed the image, allowed a display LUT to be turned on, and recorded clips when I pressed the camera’s trigger: mighty impressive.


The 7Q can also be set up to record ProRes HD from the raw input, but it steadfastly refused to do so for the FS7’s S-Log3-encoded video, insisting (quite rightly) on being fed a gamma it knows what to do with before it “bakes in” a look on compressed recordings.


Convergent Design assures me that the 7Q will fully support the FS7 by the time the FS7 actually ships.
Click to expand...
They do in fact work together and we are working with Sony so that the functionality will be complete by the time the camera is released. The Odyssey7Q "FS700 Record Option" is now the "FS7/FS700 Record Option".
 
Woah, thanks Mitch. I may have just decided based on that to not sell my 7Q!

And thinking about it, the FS700 is so little worth used that its a valuable B-cam that im not that afraid of loosing. Can mount it on hair raising places without caring (that much). :kali:

I have some decisions to make...
 
jshbckr said:
For me, it's the little things. I want a built-in reference mic so I don't have to hook up a full XLR mic just for scratch audio.
Click to expand...
THIS.

Why this is such a huge issue... it can literally be a mono, tiny built-in mic with the choice to set it to channel 1 or 2... I really dislike having to attach the regular mic JUST so i can edit more efficiently (timecode hasn't worked so well with the various cameras I have).

I posted in another thread, but I saw a preproduction fs7 yesterday... and I was disappointed. Long story short: i imagined it to be much smaller... like half the size... but its quite big... and heavy, before you even add the rocker and EVF.

The whole thing is ncredibly uncomfortable (easily fixed tho by having a longer handle/shoulder mount WITHOUT the accessory they mentioned) and there's no way you could get accurate focus with the EVF.

IMG_2301.jpg
 
dmitrizigany said:
So... Like many other FS700 owners (it seems) the announcement of the FS7 made me lust to upgrade.

As someone who lives pretty much hand to mouth I only ever buy new gear when I have the cash. Being more or less constantly broke, things costing over €800 are generally hard to acquire for me.

Just before the FS7 was announced I had sold my EA50 (still miss the 18-200 power zoom!) and was planning on getting the Odyssey 7Q. I could just about afford it along with a battery plate and one drive. Not the FS700 license, so that would have to be a later purchase in that case.

Now, one of my biggest issues with the FS700 has been for use hand held in quick jobs etc. I was hoping the FS7 would have been smaller. But it seems ergonomically great. The almost biggest feature to me is the handle with it's customisable buttons! Always wished I could at least turn the Photo button on the FS700 handle into something useful. What a waste of a button that is in movie mode!
The FS7 looks truly wonderful and would be a dream.
If I sold my FS700 as well, I think I could just about afford the FS7.

But then I would still be stuck with one fairly large camera. Although a very nice one.

I recently did a two camera job with my NEX-3N as b-cam. And then came to realise that a more reliable b-cam would also be very nice. Enter the A7s.
The A7s would be a great b-cam. And even in many situations probably look better than the FS700!
It would give me a small cam to use with cheaper support gear such as glidecams and sliders etc..
Also small enough to always carry with me. Also use as main cam on jobs where a small camera is better.
It would also give me the FF aesthetics as a change when needed.

I have a bit given up on the idea of the FS7 as I realised that even if I could afford it, things like the batteries, media, file sizes etc would quickly lead to secondary expenses a bit over my current means. But still have a nagging feeling that maybe this would be the best in the long run.

The O7Q is also a bit overkill for me. Would be a bit like a €3500 fix to get rid of the edge highlight contrast issue and to get 10bit. Would probably use it mainly in 4KtoHD mode with occasional 2K raw slow mo.

Right now I'm leaning towards getting the A7s. That would also leave some money left that I could save to get the 24-70 lens pretty soon.

Another disruption was the announcement that Atomos will eventually support FS700 raw on the Shogun. Meaning that in the future there will at least be a cheaper way to get more out of the FS700.

Indecisive til the end, I guess I'd like to hear the people of the internet's opinion on what route to take?
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I'd say keep the fs700 and get an a7s. Thats what i have now (a7s dedicated to the ronin) and I honestly don't see myself changing any gear for at least the next gear. Maybe add the shogun, but for 1080 production you don't need more.
 
Keep your FS700. Wait for the FS7 to be in wide circulation. Don't fall for the Sony hype and knee jerk jump thru hoops for the latest camera dujour. After users start posting their experiences with the FS7, make your decision. There's so much to consider that the marketing media doesn't mention. The FS700 is an extremely capable camera, and rigged properly, makes a suitable R&G rig. I was recording Prores and DNxHD on a PIX240i before the O7Q. The PIX240i and FS700 makes a very nice package. Once Atomos releases their add-on, things will get cheaper.
 
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llirik said:
I'd say keep the fs700 and get an a7s. Thats what i have now (a7s dedicated to the ronin) and I honestly don't see myself changing any gear for at least the next gear. Maybe add the shogun, but for 1080 production you don't need more.
Click to expand...
Yes, I did just that :)
 
cuervo said:
Keep your FS700. Wait for the FS7 to be in wide circulation. Don't fall for the Sony hype and knee jerk jump thru hoops for the latest camera dujour. After users start posting their experiences with the FS7, make your decision. There's so much to consider that the marketing media doesn't mention. The FS700 is an extremely capable camera, and rigged properly, makes a suitable R&G rig. I was recording Prores and DNxHD on a PIX240i before the O7Q. The PIX240i and FS700 makes a very nice package. Once Atomos releases their add-on, things will get cheaper.
Click to expand...
Problem with waiting is that then I will not have the money anymore. It was was my one chance to do it (within foreseeable future)
Decided to keep the FS700 and get an A7s as well.

Biggest problem with rigging the FS700 is that it costs so damn much. Cannot really justify paying €1000+ for some metal pieces. Wish I could.
 
dmitrizigany said:
Biggest problem with rigging the FS700 is that it costs so damn much. Cannot really justify paying €1000+ for some metal pieces. Wish I could.
Click to expand...

It does not have to.

I use a Manfrotto quick release adapter on my Berkey systems shoulder pad + a custom made Berkey Systems adapter onto the shoulder pad mount to allow 15mm rod mounts out on the back, onto which i mount a Berkey counterweight. On the side of the FS700 there is an optional media latch where i have mounted a Odyssey 7Q battery plate to counterweight, and a wire goes over the camera to the O7Q which is rigged on the EVF side of the camera. From the Westside AV store i have a 4 hole Arri rosette extension which takes the FS700 handle further in front like the FS7 handle, giving me control for REC and zoom lenses.

I think the total price is somewhere around 1000 dollars, for making a camera that costs 3500 dollars used similar to FS7 8000 dollars in ergonomics.

From the top of my mind:

QR: 200 dollar
Pad: 200 dollar
Weight: 100 dollar
Adapter: 50 dollar + mnts 150 dollar
Extension: 100 dollar
7Q mount: 250 dollar

1050 dollars. Give or take on some items. Thats less than euros.
 
Martin.G said:
1050 dollars. Give or take on some items. Thats less than euros.
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Unfortunately that would probably mean it's around €1100 or more here (generally higher prices and more VAT). Which is a lot of money to me, especially for something that I only need occasionally (But when you need it it's super convenient). Also it's three months rent.
One thing that I didn't consider when I got the FS700 was the cost of all the support gear. And it's one of the reasons I've also toyed with the idea of selling the FS700 and go with 2 A7s. But the thought of having to deal with only DSLRs is appalling ;)
 
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