7.7.7.7 - the great FS700/FS7/A7s/O7Q puzzle.

D

dmitrizigany

Veteran
So... Like many other FS700 owners (it seems) the announcement of the FS7 made me lust to upgrade.

As someone who lives pretty much hand to mouth I only ever buy new gear when I have the cash. Being more or less constantly broke, things costing over €800 are generally hard to acquire for me.

Just before the FS7 was announced I had sold my EA50 (still miss the 18-200 power zoom!) and was planning on getting the Odyssey 7Q. I could just about afford it along with a battery plate and one drive. Not the FS700 license, so that would have to be a later purchase in that case.

Now, one of my biggest issues with the FS700 has been for use hand held in quick jobs etc. I was hoping the FS7 would have been smaller. But it seems ergonomically great. The almost biggest feature to me is the handle with it's customisable buttons! Always wished I could at least turn the Photo button on the FS700 handle into something useful. What a waste of a button that is in movie mode!
The FS7 looks truly wonderful and would be a dream.
If I sold my FS700 as well, I think I could just about afford the FS7.

But then I would still be stuck with one fairly large camera. Although a very nice one.

I recently did a two camera job with my NEX-3N as b-cam. And then came to realise that a more reliable b-cam would also be very nice. Enter the A7s.
The A7s would be a great b-cam. And even in many situations probably look better than the FS700!
It would give me a small cam to use with cheaper support gear such as glidecams and sliders etc..
Also small enough to always carry with me. Also use as main cam on jobs where a small camera is better.
It would also give me the FF aesthetics as a change when needed.

I have a bit given up on the idea of the FS7 as I realised that even if I could afford it, things like the batteries, media, file sizes etc would quickly lead to secondary expenses a bit over my current means. But still have a nagging feeling that maybe this would be the best in the long run.

The O7Q is also a bit overkill for me. Would be a bit like a €3500 fix to get rid of the edge highlight contrast issue and to get 10bit. Would probably use it mainly in 4KtoHD mode with occasional 2K raw slow mo.

Right now I'm leaning towards getting the A7s. That would also leave some money left that I could save to get the 24-70 lens pretty soon.

Another disruption was the announcement that Atomos will eventually support FS700 raw on the Shogun. Meaning that in the future there will at least be a cheaper way to get more out of the FS700.

Indecisive til the end, I guess I'd like to hear the people of the internet's opinion on what route to take?
 
I know what you mean. I have had my best year doing video, and actually made enough money this year that I 'could' buy the FS7. But.....'should' I? Would it actually make my
business more money? If I did not have a FS700, the choice would be easy.....I'd be buying it right away. But it's kind of like the old NLE upgrades (before Adobe went subscription
and Apple just gave you upgrades for free.) I would often skip upgrade cycles, because the features that were new, weren't quite enough to get me to part with the money.
So the FS7, nice ergonomics, I love the built in 10 bit and built in 4k would be kind of nice. Continuous high speed is nice as well. On the other hand.....I have not had any jobs
where I actually needed 4k, or 10 bit yet, as I mostly do corporate and organizational promos for the web. If I had to, I could get the 7Q. Then there is the fact that I'd need to
upgrade my computer and storage to deal with 4K. Plus I like the cheap batteries and media on the FS700 and the relatively low bit rate of AVCHD actually helps me archive stuff.

Basically I'm trapped in my usual tech cycle of really, really, really 'wanting' something.....but probably not really needing it.I have a FS700 and a VG20 for B-cam....
so should I sell one of them? Both of them? Neither? I think what I am going to do, is wait. Yup, I don't need to be first in line to get the FS7. It's a Sony camera
so they will make plenty, and although you may miss the chance to be 'first on your block' with one....it's not like you won't be able to get one within a reasonable
period of time. I think I'm gonna watch reviews and footage. If I had no other camera, I may be in a rush, but I'm good for now so I'm going to be patient
and let others live on the bleeding edge. Maybe when I decide to upgrade, they will have come out with the videocamera version of the A7s. Then all those
people who I envied with the FS7's, will be looking at me in awe as I pull out my new 'FSA7s'.
 
I fall kind of in the same category. Bought the 7Q, mostly for 4K compressed. I don't imagine i'll use RAW. I also bought a shoulder rig, monitor mount, and all kinds of stuff JUST so i could carry this FS700/7Q monster around. What does Sony do two months later? Introduce a camera that does exactly what i thought i needed the 7Q for. 4K compressed.... and has a built in shoulder rig and handle. Plus, i LOVE the top handle with REC button right on it. It's great such a camera is now out there, but it's more than a bit annoying that i just spent tons of time and money to make all the old stuff work pretty much like the FS7 is going to.
 
rotierney said:
Does anyone know if this handle and grip will be compatible with the FS700 and available for purchase separately?
Click to expand...
I highly doubt they will make it available separately. It's a great selling point for the FS7. Maybe some basic functions like the rec and zoom rocker will work. But to assign functions to the other buttons a firmware upgrade to the FS700 would be needed. I presume.
Would be fantastic though!
 
ChadN said:
I fall kind of in the same category. Bought the 7Q, mostly for 4K compressed. I don't imagine i'll use RAW. I also bought a shoulder rig, monitor mount, and all kinds of stuff JUST so i could carry this FS700/7Q monster around. What does Sony do two months later? Introduce a camera that does exactly what i thought i needed the 7Q for. 4K compressed.... and has a built in shoulder rig and handle. Plus, i LOVE the top handle with REC button right on it. It's great such a camera is now out there, but it's more than a bit annoying that i just spent tons of time and money to make all the old stuff work pretty much like the FS7 is going to.
Click to expand...
Always irritating when something new comes along so shortly after you get it!
If I already had the 7Q I don't think I would be as indecisive though. As a FS700 + 7Q gives it some edges over the FS7.
But getting a 7Q now really makes no sense. At least not for my needs. Which is basically 10bit HD.
 
alaskacameradude said:
Basically I'm trapped in my usual tech cycle of really, really, really 'wanting' something.....but probably not really needing it.I have a FS700 and a VG20 for B-cam....
so should I sell one of them? Both of them? Neither? I think what I am going to do, is wait.
Click to expand...
problem for me is my money has a tendency to disappear if I don't use it ;)
And the big decision here is that because I have money from the EA50 and by selling the FS700 as well, I could swing the FS7.
The FS700's second hand value will continue to decrease and my money will be spent. I doubt I'll get the chance to acquire something in the league of the FS7 in any foreseeable future.

Do I REALLY need what the FS7 offers? No, not as a way of making money with my camera. But I'm more of an artist than a business man. I'm not only in video for the money. I love creating great work. And it would be great with footage that held up better for creative grading.
But a small second cam like the A7s would give me another kind of extra creativity by being easier to bring along and get in places where the FS700 just can't. And give the full frame "look" as variation (without buying the expensive Speed Booster).

Actually, image wise I'm happy with the FS700, except the 8bit codec and the edge contrast issue.
 
dmitrizigany said:
problem for me is my money has a tendency to disappear if I don't use it ;)
And the big decision here is that because I have money from the EA50 and by selling the FS700 as well, I could swing the FS7.
The FS700's second hand value will continue to decrease and my money will be spent. I doubt I'll get the chance to acquire something in the league of the FS7 in any foreseeable future.

Do I REALLY need what the FS7 offers? No, not as a way of making money with my camera. But I'm more of an artist than a business man. I'm not only in video for the money. I love creating great work. And it would be great with footage that held up better for creative grading.
But a small second cam like the A7s would give me another kind of extra creativity by being easier to bring along and get in places where the FS700 just can't. And give the full frame "look" as variation (without buying the expensive Speed Booster).

Actually, image wise I'm happy with the FS700, except the 8bit codec and the edge contrast issue.
Click to expand...

I think it's always harder for an 'artist' to make money decisions.
Business decisions can be measured. But what is the worth of
10 bit over 8 bit for an artist? I have no clue. Basically for an
artist(or a hobbyist for that matter) I generally say 'if you have
the money and want to spend it that way, go for it.' Much
easier than needing things to make business sense before
you buy them!
 
One thing that I measure my wants/needs on is capability. One thing I've loved with the FS700+7Q is that I can basically say "Yeah, I can do that!" to most requests.

Another factor is minimizing potential visual issues. I've had terrible moire on my 7D that nearly ruined an interview, but luckily the deliverable was a highly compressed video that was embedded in an iBook document, so it slid by. But that had the potential to be a "re-shoot it or you won't be paid, and thanks for the pain in the ass of us having to schedule the interview again" situation. Same can be said for the edge-contrast issue, luckily alleviated by the 7Q. So when looking at the 7Q, it wasn't just a "nice to have". It extended the slow motion capabilities of the camera and also would give me the means to minimize those visual artifacts that could potentially ruin a shot. In my opinion, a shot shouldn't be ruined by me or my tools.

So while it may be more of an investment on my end, I'm minimizing my risks in order to ensure the likelihood that I will be hired again!

Same goes for accessories. There are many times where I could cheap out on some accessory or part (and I do from time to time...) but I learn quickly which parts I should just invest in. If it makes me work better and faster, it's a good investment.
 
dmitrizigany said:
problem for me is my money has a tendency to disappear if I don't use it ;)
Click to expand...

That's a sign you must buy. I would sell all your current cameras and just the get FS7. It's a much better camera than the A7s just because it's 10 bit which is pretty much the sweet spot. The difference between 10 bit and 8 bit is just huge.

The FS7 is actually very compact for all the features you get. Plus, you look a LOT BETTER showing up on a set with a real camera as opposed to a DSLR.
 
gene_can_sing said:
That's a sign you must buy. I would sell all your current cameras and just the get FS7. It's a much better camera than the A7s just because it's 10 bit which is pretty much the sweet spot. The difference between 10 bit and 8 bit is just huge.
The FS7 is actually very compact for all the features you get. Plus, you look a LOT BETTER showing up on a set with a real camera as opposed to a DSLR.
Click to expand...
I was planning on getting the A7s in addition to my FS700 in that case! Having two cameras that are of high quality is sometimes very useful. And I often find myself in situations where a smaller one would be useful.
That said, just saw that the price is only €6795 for the FS7!
Any recent words on when it will ship? Or is only "October" the word still?
 
jshbckr said:
One thing that I measure my wants/needs on is capability. One thing I've loved with the FS700+7Q is that I can basically say "Yeah, I can do that!" to most requests.
Click to expand...
Yes, that's one thing that would be nicer with the FS7 for sure.
With the FS700, you still don't really qualify for some broadcast jobs. Not that I get many of those. But it would be good if they came my way.

So while it may be more of an investment on my end, I'm minimizing my risks in order to ensure the likelihood that I will be hired again!
Click to expand...
Very true as well. On the first music video I made with the FS700 I was badly burnt by the edge contrast issues.
But as far as we know, they could be present in the FS7 as well. But one would think Sony were smart enough and not letting that happen again. Although it's apparently in the A7s as also.
 
dmitrizigany said:
Yes, that's one thing that would be nicer with the FS7 for sure.
With the FS700, you still don't really qualify for some broadcast jobs. Not that I get many of those. But it would be good if they came my way.
Click to expand...

That depends really. The BBC has requirements above what
the FS700 will do internally. But I've done plenty of broadcast
TV jobs with the FS700 to internal card here in the US.
 
Me already owning FS700 and O7Q I don't see anything on the spec sheet of the FS7 that makes me want to jump ship... someone enlighten me :)
 
dapoopta said:
Me already owning FS700 and O7Q I don't see anything on the spec sheet of the FS7 that makes me want to jump ship... someone enlighten me :)
Click to expand...
No, if you have a 7Q already there's not much reason.
But if you have no 7Q and no rig for the FS700, then you're better of selling it and getting the FS7 instead.
 
dapoopta said:
Me already owning FS700 and O7Q I don't see anything on the spec sheet of the FS7 that makes me want to jump ship... someone enlighten me :)
Click to expand...

I'm thinking just the form factor. To lighten the load and have the compressed 4K in-camera, not have to lug around a 7" monitor AND shoulder rig. FS7 is all that in one.

But if you have no issue with the larger set up, i can't see jumping ship either.
 
dapoopta said:
Me already owning FS700 and O7Q I don't see anything on the spec sheet of the FS7 that makes me want to jump ship... someone enlighten me :)
Click to expand...

Price. Adorama and B&H have started taking preorders for $8k. For that price you could sell your whole FS700+7Q kit and buy a FS7 and be out ahead a few thousand dollars and end up with a better designed rig that is easier to power and manage. Not to mention there are always going to be certain difficulties with the FS700+7Q like monitor lag, lack of camera control overlays and quick expanded focus on your 7Q or other monitor (for menus you still have to go to the onboard, for expanded focus you have to find a way to get your hand to the 7Q touchscreen while operating).

It also remains to be seen if switching resolution modes and framerates etc will be as seamless on the FS700+7Q as it is on the FS700 or FS7 alone. Hopefully we won't be stuck rebooting or even reloading new programs for 3min when we want to record different commonly used formats. The FS7 is a standalone unit and all the pieces work together properly, whereas the 7Q may forever just be an 3rd party addon.

That said, the 7Q is a pretty powerful tool on its own, but if you mostly only use it with your FS700, the FS7 might be a better option especially if we can save some money in the process and work in 4k faster and easier.

Also it remains to be seen if CD will be able to bring 240fps 2k ProRes or 60fps 4k ProRes to the 7Q, whereas the FS7 will definitely be able to record high framerates with high bitrates without hassle. A lot of it may come down to the September and October 7Q firmware releases. If CD has some nice firmware features up their sleeves (Prores flavors, compressed 120fps 4k and 240fps 2k autodetected, improved filesystem, reduced power consumption, custom monitoring and recording LUTs) it may tip the balance a bit.
 
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It depends what your needs are. If you need 4K/2K RAW, ProRes then FS700 + 7Q is much cheaper solution then FS7.
 
alohype said:
It depends what your needs are. If you need 4K/2K RAW, ProRes then FS700 + 7Q is much cheaper solution then FS7.
Click to expand...

Yes that's true. FS7 is really limited to XAVC for 4K, so a big part of the decision might be between that and ProRes/DNG. On one hand ProRes is so widely used, on the other hand 4K ProRes HQ on FAT32 seems quite ridiculous as it'll split clips every 2-3min and you're stuck with CD's very very limited copy tool for recombining them into one clip, whereas XAVC uses exFAT so it doesn't need to split clips and each of your clips is contained in one easy to transport MP4 file with a higher bitrate than ProRes HQ (XAVC-I) or a conveniently sized low bitrate (XAVC-L).

I've had occasional issues with the SDI connection between my FS700 even after upgrading to nicer cables. It happens only rarely, but it'd be nice to be rid of the possibility of corrupt recordings due to external cabling.
 
nyvz said:
Price. Adorama and B&H have started taking preorders for $8k. For that price you could sell your whole FS700+7Q kit and buy a FS7 and be out ahead a few thousand dollars and end up with a better designed rig that is easier to power and manage. Not to mention there are always going to be certain difficulties with the FS700+7Q like monitor lag, lack of camera control overlays and quick expanded focus on your 7Q or other monitor (for menus you still have to go to the onboard, for expanded focus you have to find a way to get your hand to the 7Q touchscreen while operating).

It also remains to be seen if switching resolution modes and framerates etc will be as seamless on the FS700+7Q as it is on the FS700 or FS7 alone. Hopefully we won't be stuck rebooting or even reloading new programs for 3min when we want to record different commonly used formats. The FS7 is a standalone unit and all the pieces work together properly, whereas the 7Q may forever just be an 3rd party addon.

That said, the 7Q is a pretty powerful tool on its own, but if you mostly only use it with your FS700, the FS7 might be a better option especially if we can save some money in the process and work in 4k faster and easier.

Also it remains to be seen if CD will be able to bring 240fps 2k ProRes or 60fps 4k ProRes to the 7Q, whereas the FS7 will definitely be able to record high framerates with high bitrates without hassle. A lot of it may come down to the September and October 7Q firmware releases. If CD has some nice firmware features up their sleeves (Prores flavors, compressed 120fps 4k and 240fps 2k autodetected, improved filesystem, reduced power consumption, custom monitoring and recording LUTs) it may tip the balance a bit.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I definitely feel that the FS7 will be way more integrated than the 7Q. But with that said, having the ability to shoot 4K RAW and 240fps 2K RAW to the FS7 is pretty awesome and reason enough to keep the 7Q. Plus, it's a great monitor.

I have a feeling once the FS7 comes out, I will probably only be able to get $3500 for my FS700. At that point, I might as well keep the FS700 as a B-Cam. Definitely keeping the 7Q though. Because Dan and Mitch are cool guys, I definitely hope that new markets open for Convergent Design with the 7Q since the FS700 gravy train is coming to an end.
 
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