60p VS 24p
- Thread starter Decius
- Start date
Justin Kuhn
Veteran
no. it'll look better. more frames, more information = pretty pictures
60p can look better, but are you sacrificing anything... other then storage space. (i.e. 1080 vs. 720, bitrate, etc...)
Also depends on the look your going for (film or tv), and how you want to reduce the frame rate down to 24p... if your just going to skip frames then why not just shoot 24?
Also depends on the look your going for (film or tv), and how you want to reduce the frame rate down to 24p... if your just going to skip frames then why not just shoot 24?
arniepix
Well-known member
If you simply remove the extra frames, the motion will look clipped and stuttery. That's because your shutter speed must be higher (at least 1/60th of a second, more likely 1/120th) with 60P. With 24P, the typical shutter speed is 1/48th.
If you want 24P, the simplest way is to actually shoot in 24P.
If you want 24P, the simplest way is to actually shoot in 24P.
Okay, I'll explain it further.
I have the GH2 and since it cannot shoot 60p in 1080, and I am content with 720, i'm considering shooting exclusively in 720 at 60p so that I have the option of slow-mo whenever I want it.
However, this won't work it when I output it as 24p from whatever NLE I use and it looks different than a straight 24p recording would - my goal is a filmic look.
So, thus far the information I have is that I need to run it at a higher shutter speed in order to facilitate this. Can anyone explain why? Has anyone tried this?
I have the GH2 and since it cannot shoot 60p in 1080, and I am content with 720, i'm considering shooting exclusively in 720 at 60p so that I have the option of slow-mo whenever I want it.
However, this won't work it when I output it as 24p from whatever NLE I use and it looks different than a straight 24p recording would - my goal is a filmic look.
So, thus far the information I have is that I need to run it at a higher shutter speed in order to facilitate this. Can anyone explain why? Has anyone tried this?
arniepix
Well-known member
If you want the same motion blur as 24fps film, you need to shoot at 24fps with a 1/48th shutter speed. Shooting at 60fps doesn't have enough motion blur to give you that look. And if you use frame blending to try to simulate the look, you will lose sharpness (and gain long render times).
cheezweezl
Veteran
it doesn't have to do with a 1/60 shutter as much as it has to do with trying to pull 24 frames out of 60. 24 doesn't divide evenly into 60 so therefore the frames that get thrown out will be in an odd pattern. so the motion from frame to frame won't be consistant, causing jerky motion.
simple solution. shoot everything 1080p/24. when you need to shoot slow motion, shoot 720p/60 and uprez it in post.
doesn't give you the option of slomo anytime you want it in post but will look good. or... there's always twixtor for smooth slow motion in post from a 24 frame source...
simple solution. shoot everything 1080p/24. when you need to shoot slow motion, shoot 720p/60 and uprez it in post.
doesn't give you the option of slomo anytime you want it in post but will look good. or... there's always twixtor for smooth slow motion in post from a 24 frame source...
What we all are lacking here is information. We all assume you "generally" want the option of doing slow motion, and are content with the quality of 720p vs. 1080p.
But rather, what will you be shooting?
The Menu system is fast enough, that I can switch the film setting quite fast when I need to.
Another idea, is you have some custom functions. You could switch one of them into 720p... although its in "P" mode... it does tell you the shutter speed
Turning the footage into 24p in post wont give you the right "professional" results of true 24p or a division of that frame rate (ie: 48p).
I shoot mostly weddings and fashion shoots, I occasionally use 720p in some instances. But only SOME, so I just plan ahead for those rare circumstances.
24p is gorgeous, if you can... always shoot with that.
But rather, what will you be shooting?
The Menu system is fast enough, that I can switch the film setting quite fast when I need to.
Another idea, is you have some custom functions. You could switch one of them into 720p... although its in "P" mode... it does tell you the shutter speed
Turning the footage into 24p in post wont give you the right "professional" results of true 24p or a division of that frame rate (ie: 48p).
I shoot mostly weddings and fashion shoots, I occasionally use 720p in some instances. But only SOME, so I just plan ahead for those rare circumstances.
24p is gorgeous, if you can... always shoot with that.
So there's a unique sort of look provided when a sensor captures pure 24p - the motion blur and all is divided in such a way that it gives a unique look, whereas in 60p, even though there are more frames and therefore more data, in post even if you cut out the frames in between, the motion blur (amongst other things) that will connect each frame to the next will not look as good as pure 24p.
I understand this to be the conclusion, but cannot commit to it because I do not know why that is the case. Theoretically, if you're watching something at 60fps and another thing at 24fps, the same stuff is happening given the same timeframe, so if you remove the excess frames from the 60fps, at the same exact time interval, the same exact event should be happening in both scenes. Therefore, what I seem to be missing is a clear distinction between the actual 24 frams in pure 24p vs the 24 frames you would get from a 60fps running at 24fps with excess frames removed.
Like, if a person is moving through the scene, at 24p you would see blur from frame 1 -> 2. In 60p that blur would be extended across, let's say, 5 frames. 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5. But at any given millisecond of actual viewing, the hand is in the same position, moving to the same position. So theoretically, if you remove excess frames from the 60p and reduce it to 1 -> 2, theoretically the hand should be in the exact same position, doing the exact same thing.
So the only variable is connecting the two frames together, ie, the motion blur. How will that be different? The descriptions provided thus far are just theoretical - jerky, etc. That doesn't really explain why what is happening, and exactly what is happening.
Other than motion blur, what else could be different?
I understand this to be the conclusion, but cannot commit to it because I do not know why that is the case. Theoretically, if you're watching something at 60fps and another thing at 24fps, the same stuff is happening given the same timeframe, so if you remove the excess frames from the 60fps, at the same exact time interval, the same exact event should be happening in both scenes. Therefore, what I seem to be missing is a clear distinction between the actual 24 frams in pure 24p vs the 24 frames you would get from a 60fps running at 24fps with excess frames removed.
Like, if a person is moving through the scene, at 24p you would see blur from frame 1 -> 2. In 60p that blur would be extended across, let's say, 5 frames. 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5. But at any given millisecond of actual viewing, the hand is in the same position, moving to the same position. So theoretically, if you remove excess frames from the 60p and reduce it to 1 -> 2, theoretically the hand should be in the exact same position, doing the exact same thing.
So the only variable is connecting the two frames together, ie, the motion blur. How will that be different? The descriptions provided thus far are just theoretical - jerky, etc. That doesn't really explain why what is happening, and exactly what is happening.
Other than motion blur, what else could be different?
cheezweezl
Veteran
because, if you take a 60 frame file and drop it on a 24 frame timeline it will go something like this.
top line, kept frames. bottom line dropped frames.
1-3---6-8-----11--13------16--18------21--23------26---28-------31--33-------36---38------41.....
-2-4-5-7-9-10--12--14-15--17--19-20--22--24-25--27---29-30--32---34-35---37--39-40.....
see how there are uneven gaps. you will perceive that as unnatural, jittery motion.
top line, kept frames. bottom line dropped frames.
1-3---6-8-----11--13------16--18------21--23------26---28-------31--33-------36---38------41.....
-2-4-5-7-9-10--12--14-15--17--19-20--22--24-25--27---29-30--32---34-35---37--39-40.....
see how there are uneven gaps. you will perceive that as unnatural, jittery motion.
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Yes, but the question is, do the out of synch frames do much?
I found this video:
http://vimeo.com/5373927
And you can barely tell any difference between the two. In fact, in this thread:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?170383-Shooting-60P-for-24P/page2
It is concluded that if you could have a 1/48th shutter at 60p, you'd create the exact same footage as 24p if you removed frames, aside from the out of synch ones.
So it looks like if you run at 1/60 at 60p and synch it to 24p, you will have a slightly faster shutter than 1/50 @ 24p, but the main problem would be the pulldown from 60p to 24p, since it does not divide evenly.
From what I've seen and read, most people do not notice the difference. So most of the information in this thread is actually incorrect.
For the most part, you can reproduce it and will notice nothing remarkably different, AND your shutter speed should not be doubled - that is only used when you are intending on running the footage in slow mo at 24p.
I found this video:
http://vimeo.com/5373927
And you can barely tell any difference between the two. In fact, in this thread:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?170383-Shooting-60P-for-24P/page2
It is concluded that if you could have a 1/48th shutter at 60p, you'd create the exact same footage as 24p if you removed frames, aside from the out of synch ones.
So it looks like if you run at 1/60 at 60p and synch it to 24p, you will have a slightly faster shutter than 1/50 @ 24p, but the main problem would be the pulldown from 60p to 24p, since it does not divide evenly.
From what I've seen and read, most people do not notice the difference. So most of the information in this thread is actually incorrect.
For the most part, you can reproduce it and will notice nothing remarkably different, AND your shutter speed should not be doubled - that is only used when you are intending on running the footage in slow mo at 24p.
cheezweezl
Veteran
The answer, sometimes yes, sometimes no. if there isn't much movement happening, then you may not even see it. but you will definitely see it when stuff starts moving, especially the camera. the best thing you can do is go shoot some stuff at 60p with similar action and camera movement to your upcoming project, drop it on a 24p timeline, and see the results for yourself. if you think it looks good, then nothing is stopping you.
cheezweezl
Veteran
right. an easy way for me to think about it is that your video camera is simply a still camera that takes pictures at a rapid pace. so the motion blur in your individual frames has to do with shutter speed, not framerate. honestly the difference between a 1/48 and a 1/60 shutter is not huge. on the other hand, shooting and viewing 60p footage is much different than shooting and viewing 24p footage. night and day.
You can change and manipulate the 60p footage to emulate the 24p footage, yes. But it will not match footage that is captured purely at 24p with a proper shutter speed.
The main difference is in the way the footage is seen by the chip and thru the shutter. It gives it a certain look and moves differently than 60p does.
Once you capture at 60p, the way the image is laid down on each frame looks different than the images laid onto each frame at 24p. So you can discard frames all you want, they simply won't "match" that look. You can get close, but the discerning eye can tell.
Also, I understand wanting to capture it at 60p with a slower than 1/60 shutter, but then what it the point of capturing at 60p? You'll lose the crispness you'll want for the stuff you do decide to slo-mo.
My advice, try to plan it out as much as you can and shoot at the different speeds or find a good shutter speed you like at 60p and stick to it.
Good luck!
The main difference is in the way the footage is seen by the chip and thru the shutter. It gives it a certain look and moves differently than 60p does.
Once you capture at 60p, the way the image is laid down on each frame looks different than the images laid onto each frame at 24p. So you can discard frames all you want, they simply won't "match" that look. You can get close, but the discerning eye can tell.
Also, I understand wanting to capture it at 60p with a slower than 1/60 shutter, but then what it the point of capturing at 60p? You'll lose the crispness you'll want for the stuff you do decide to slo-mo.
My advice, try to plan it out as much as you can and shoot at the different speeds or find a good shutter speed you like at 60p and stick to it.
Good luck!