5D Setup for Doc Style Production

saneproductions

saneproductions

Veteran
We quite a bit of corporate A/B roll production and we are looking at the 5D to supplement our other production equipment for projects that need a different look (we mainly shoot HPX500). We wouldn't be running and gunning with this type of setup, but would do interviews and b-roll vignettes of small staged scenes.

I am looking for recommendations for a 5DMkll package with lenses. From reading here and other places around the web this is what we are looking at.

5DMkll Kit with 24-105 F4L lens is pretty cheap if you buy it with camera and it is a good all around lens for stills (if a bit too slow for video).

Zeiss ZF Lenses (which 3 lenses would you choose and if you added a 4th later what would it be). I already have a Leica 35 F2 and 50 F2, so we may just get an 85 to start if that seems best. Seems like you'd want 25, 35, 50, 85 as a great base kit. I also have a Leica 135 F2.8 and 180 F2.8 so don't really need longer lenses at least to start. Will probably phase out the Leicas over time and get all Zeiss, but who knows for sure.

Is there any place to get them geared for follow focus? Is this really that important or could we just focus on the barrel? Seems like follow focus would be harder/impossible if we have a mis matched set of lenses right?

Follow focus (what kind?)

Nikon adapter (probably from photodiox).

CF cards (what kind/speed)

Some kind of viewfinder setup (not sure what options there are)

Some kind of setup for hand held.

A digital audio recorder (probably the Sound Devices 2 channel)

Is there any kind of timecode function with this camera or is sync all by eye with the slate?

Thanks in advance!

Mike
 
Some good and intelligent questions.

Any reason for going 5D and not 7D? Just curious.

If you are going to shoot mostly interviews and b-roll, probably not much reason for a super-wide or a telephoto. So the focal length you mentioned sounds pretty good. I'll let someone else tackle the primes.

Instead of gearing the lenses, I'd just use clamps. Not as elegant, but simple and you can buy a few of them and put them on your lenses and be done.

Follow Focus is down to budget. I've used the Red Rock and thought it was fine.

CF Cards, I tend to like Sandisk. There are several good brands.

Hand held I like my Fig Rig, and I am getting a shoulder-mount kit with rails. Versatile, and you can move forward with it if you like. I chose the Red Rock kit, but there are plenty of others like Zacuto, Cavision, etc.

For a DAR, the Sound Devices is probably going to be great.

Timecode? Nope. Back to the old school.

Enjoy!
 
PerroneFord said:
Some good and intelligent questions.

Any reason for going 5D and not 7D? Just curious.

If you are going to shoot mostly interviews and b-roll, probably not much reason for a super-wide or a telephoto. So the focal length you mentioned sounds pretty good. I'll let someone else tackle the primes.

Instead of gearing the lenses, I'd just use clamps. Not as elegant, but simple and you can buy a few of them and put them on your lenses and be done.

Follow Focus is down to budget. I've used the Red Rock and thought it was fine.

CF Cards, I tend to like Sandisk. There are several good brands.

Hand held I like my Fig Rig, and I am getting a shoulder-mount kit with rails. Versatile, and you can move forward with it if you like. I chose the Red Rock kit, but there are plenty of others like Zacuto, Cavision, etc.

For a DAR, the Sound Devices is probably going to be great.

Timecode? Nope. Back to the old school.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the great info!

As far as 5d vs 7d I know a dp who uses both who swears by the full frame (and another shooter who has the 7d but is looking to move up). Isn't the crop factor fairly limiting on the wide end? Wide fast primes are fairly few and far between. I don't know really as I have not used either yet. I have played around with my t1i but turning my leica 35 into a 52 or whatever is not helping my establishing shot (but I do like what it does to my 50). I am looking at a 20-35 right now for personal use (along with my rebel), but that is just for stills. I have plenty of video equipment available if a fun side project comes along.

You can sell me, is the 7d better? This purchase is primarily for a video camera and almost no stills will be happening with it.

One other thing, what speed compact flash cards do I need?
 
I'm not the guy to sell anyone. I am buying the 7D next year for video work, and in looking at the two, I just made some observations.

Full frame has some advantages, mostly for stills work. The 7D has a higher bitrate so it's footage holds up a bit better. The 5D also shoots 30.00fps. So you have to conform everything you shoot with it if you are going to mix it with video cameras. And of course, the 5D has no 24p mode at this point.

As for the crop factor, how wide do you need to go? 14mm primes aren't that hard to come by, and unless you are trying to get the entire block in the shot standing outside, going much wider tha 20mm equivalent is just not necessary. A 24mm will show three wallls of a room if you're standing in the middle of the room. The nice thing about shooting interviews with the 7D is that you get to use inexpensive 50mm lenses that turn into 85mm equivalents or so on the 7D which gives you VERY fast and inexpensive glass for a lens you'll have on a lot for 1 person shots.

We used Sandisk Extreme 3s on our shoot at that was plenty. The data rate for video isn't really that taxing on the modern CF cards.
 
I was just kidding on the sell part, I have been reading your posts for weeks and I know you are a super straightforward dude, sorry about that.

Hmm, I will look at that bitrate issue, I like less compression, that's what kept me away from hdv and xd cam (love my dvc pro hd).

We probably won't shoot much 24p, but good to know the firmware is not out yet, I thought it was. Our main client doesn't want us using 24p, so 1080/30 is fine.

Before we were going to get a dslr for work, I was looking at wide angles and it seems like they are a bit tougher to get in the fast high quality variety. I have been hesitating to go slower than f2 since my main two lenses are f2 (the 35 and 50) and I don't want to uplight the wide shot a stop. seems like when you get to 20mm (which seems like a good wide on a 1.6 crop camera) things tend to go up to f2.8, but I was looking at manual lenses like old nikons at that time. I also read reviews of many wides and seems like they are not at their best in general wide open. Seems like you need all the detail you can get for the wide. I am not argueing with you here, just explaining my reasoning. Am I over thinking this?
 
You won't find much that wide at F2. Not without spending a kings ransom for it. F2.8 is about where you are going to be.

Also, do you realize how narrow your depth of field is going to be at F2 on those lenses?
 
If you will be shooting at F2 (not really recommended unless that is your style and what you are going for) you will definitely need a follow focus. Either way, I recommend a follow focus with a whip to reduce any camera shake your hand on the focus barrel would cause. I use the redrock follow focus as well and it's a nice unit that has held up among the other redrock stuff I have.
 
Ok, I did some tests at f2 on my t1i and I see what you mean about DOF (and that is with the APS-C sensor!). I have been shooting so long with 2/3" chips at f2, that it didn't occur to me that it would be impossible!

Why is everyone so hot to get the F1.4s etc if you really shoot at 2.8 or 2.8-4 split? Is it because they perform better in the middle of their aperature range? Why not get everything at f2.8 or f4 if that is what you are going to light to? I light to my iris :)
 
The reason for the fast glass is because when you stop down to f4 or 5.6 you are using the sharper/sweeter part of the lens.

I too have the HPX-500 and use both my 5dii and 7d both for bcams as well as a-cams.

I have the 24-105L for the 5dii. Great all around lens. Got the SinghRay Vari ND for it for when I shoot outside.

I also converted my:

20mm f2.8
24mm f2.0
35mm f1.4
50mm f1.4
85mm f1.4
135mm f2.0

http://www.rplens.com did the conversion.

They re-dampened the focus, declicked the iris mechanisms, press fitted delrin focus gears onto them and put 80mm step-up fronts on them.

They work great with both cameras. I use the Zacuto DSLR marksman with the Redrock follow focus with the Nikon reversing gear and a Genus mattebox.

Couldn't be happier.

picture.php


picture.php
 
It's not impossible. It's difficult. Why do you think they have a job dedicated to it in Hollywood (1st AC)?

People who have never shot F1.4 are super hot to trot on it. Most movies are shot between F2.8 and f5.6 from what I've been able to gather from cinemtographers. This razor thin DOF that we read about on here is largely non-existent other than for static shots where someone is seated at a table or something. Totally useless on the move.

But you did hit on something. Most lenses are not good wide open. So if you get a 1.4 and open it up to 2.8, you should be getting better results. Emphasis on should. Some of these lenses don't come into their own until F8 or so. Just depends. And lighting a movie to F8 is pretty darn uncomfortable indoors. Been there, done that.
 
mcgeedigital said:
The reason for the fast glass is because when you stop down to f4 or 5.6 you are using the sharper/sweeter part of the lens.

I too have the HPX-500 and use both my 5dii and 7d both for bcams as well as a-cams.

I have the 24-105L for the 5dii. Great all around lens. Got the SinghRay Vari ND for it for when I shoot outside.

I also converted my:

20mm f2.8
24mm f2.0
35mm f1.4
50mm f1.4
85mm f1.4
135mm f2.0

http://www.rplens.com did the conversion.

They re-dampened the focus, declicked the iris mechanisms, press fitted delrin focus gears onto them and put 80mm step-up fronts on them.

They work great with both cameras. I use the Zacuto DSLR marksman with the Redrock follow focus with the Nikon reversing gear and a Genus mattebox.

Couldn't be happier.

picture.php


picture.php
Click to expand...
Wow, very nice setup you have there! Are those Zeiss lenses?

Thanks fr the information on follow focus and gearing! Great!
 
PerroneFord said:
It's not impossible. It's difficult. Why do you think they have a job dedicated to it in Hollywood (1st AC)?

People who have never shot F1.4 are super hot to trot on it. Most movies are shot between F2.8 and f5.6 from what I've been able to gather from cinemtographers. This razor thin DOF that we read about on here is largely non-existent other than for static shots where someone is seated at a table or something. Totally useless on the move.

But you did hit on something. Most lenses are not good wide open. So if you get a 1.4 and open it up to 2.8, you should be getting better results. Emphasis on should. Some of these lenses don't come into their own until F8 or so. Just depends. And lighting a movie to F8 is pretty darn uncomfortable indoors. Been there, done that.
Click to expand...

Yes, it does seem that there is quite a bit of extra enthusiasm for F1.4 :)

I need to find some information on the performance of those leica lenses wide open.

I will probably light to f2.8 or f4 to make things possible!

Thanks again!
 
mcgeedigital said:
The reason for the fast glass is because when you stop down to f4 or 5.6 you are using the sharper/sweeter part of the lens.

I too have the HPX-500 and use both my 5dii and 7d both for bcams as well as a-cams.

I have the 24-105L for the 5dii. Great all around lens. Got the SinghRay Vari ND for it for when I shoot outside.

I also converted my:

20mm f2.8
24mm f2.0
35mm f1.4
50mm f1.4
85mm f1.4
135mm f2.0

http://www.rplens.com did the conversion.

They re-dampened the focus, declicked the iris mechanisms, press fitted delrin focus gears onto them and put 80mm step-up fronts on them.

They work great with both cameras. I use the Zacuto DSLR marksman with the Redrock follow focus with the Nikon reversing gear and a Genus mattebox.

Couldn't be happier.

picture.php


picture.php
Click to expand...



Can I ask how the sensitivity compares between the HPX500, the 5D and the 7D?
 
saneproductions said:
Can I ask how the sensitivity compares between the HPX500, the 5D and the 7D?
Click to expand...

http://www.dvxuser.com/jason/HPX500/

Barry rates the HPX at about ISO 960 best case, so that's likely in 60i. I'd expect it would be about half that in 24p. For grins, we'll call it ISO 500. The 5D gave me rather clean images out to ISO 1600 at 30p, so maybe ISO 2400 at 24p would be about right. The 7D has a slightly smaller sensor, so slightly less performance.

In other words, they are worlds apart.
 
saneproductions said:
holy cow!

So lighting up to f8 may not be all that uncomfortable huh? :)
Click to expand...

I treated the 5D like film stock. Basically rating it at 100 ISO outdoors, and 400 ISO indoors. That gave very clean images. I "pushed" it when I had to, but usually just shot at those two ISOs. That gave myself, and the crew some consistency in what instruments we needed, and allowed us to eyeball when we were in the ballpark since the lighting package never changed too much. If you stay on ISO 400, then F4 is going to look pretty similar from location to location.

Again, if you treat the 5D/7D like you've got film in it, it becomes a really nice tool and quite consistent.
 
I typically like shooting around F5.6 since the DOF is nice, the focusing is manageable, and the image is more sharp than it would be at F2.8 (assuming you are using still camera lenses like Nikon or Canon). But you won't always be able to shoot with that much light so shooting at F2.8 might have to work for you at times. I did a test a while back with a Nikon 35mm F2 and a Nikon 35mm F2.8 with both of them set to F5.6 and the F2 was noticeably brighter (had more light transmission). The same went for the Nikon 50mm F1.4 against the canon 24-105 (set at 50mm) with both set at F4. Just my observation with no real scientific testing.
 
PerroneFord said:
I treated the 5D like film stock. Basically rating it at 100 ISO outdoors, and 400 ISO indoors. That gave very clean images. I "pushed" it when I had to, but usually just shot at those two ISOs. That gave myself, and the crew some consistency in what instruments we needed, and allowed us to eyeball when we were in the ballpark since the lighting package never changed too much. If you stay on ISO 400, then F4 is going to look pretty similar from location to location.

Again, if you treat the 5D/7D like you've got film in it, it becomes a really nice tool and quite consistent.
Click to expand...


You might already know this, but it does no harm to repeat it for those that do not know.



On the 5D MkII (I can's speak for the 7D) . . . .


ISO 160 is cleaner, more noise free than ISO 100.

ISO 640 is cleaner, more noise free than ISO 400.


As counter intuitive as it sounds there are ISO/Noise sweet spots in the 5D's ISO range due to the way in which it generates it's ISO range, using a lower ISO does not always increase quality and often adds more noise (as well as lowering sensitivity).

Of course you may simply wish to use ISO 100 for technical reasons - but if you have the scope to do so then increasing the ISO to the next highest ISO that is in the sweet spot range of ISO settings actually improves picture quality.

This is the list of sweet spots - (if you find yourself at an ISO not on this list - then increasing the ISO to the next highest ISO setting on this list will improve picture quality (lower noise).


160
320
640
1250
2500
5000


So if you are at ISO 800 - going to 1250 will improve picture quality ! (really !!)



Lee.
 
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