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Sorry, some one earlier was insinuating that pro gear should be more expensive, as if it were a long standing fact.
Pro gear should only be expensive when it is more difficult or more expensive to make.
5D MKIII specs
- Thread starter squig
- Start date
Sorry, some one earlier was insinuating that pro gear should be more expensive, as if it were a long standing fact.
Pro gear should only be expensive when it is more difficult or more expensive to make.
Samuel H
Major Contributor
yes, I noticed this issue, that's what originally (the day before the announcement, when I noticed 22.3mpix was 9x1080p) I thought they were coming out with a 3x3 basic bayer structure, like the new olympus, or maybe even with RGBW or RGBWK
but that doesn't seem to be the case
and, given that, my hope would be that:
* the whole sensor is read at 24/25/30 fps (well, actually a 16:9 portion of it)
* the digic5 processor has a quick path to debayer all that into a 5760x3240 RGB image (the same one used for stills, but now 16:9)
* that 5.7K RGB (debayered) image is then downsampled 3x using bicubic, as you would do in Photoshop
* the resulting 1920x1080 image is fed to the encoder
that wouldn't have the problem you described in your post, and would deliver images just as sharp as a downsampled stills image from the same camera
but now, seeing the samples we've seen so far, I'm afraid something different is going on:
* only one of every other 3 lines is read from the sensor (this gives out a 5760x1080 standard bayer pattern)
* (maybe even only 1/3 of the columns are used, but actually I think the line-skipping thing might not be so bad)
* that is debayered to a 1920x1080 image, using crazy math that avoids aliasing/moire (maybe by giving high weight to relatively far-away photosites, which would explain the soft look)
* that image is fed to the encoder
the result is an image that is basically just as soft as the ones you get with the 3x zoom-in on the T3i: a 1920x1080 bayer pattern delivers soft 1920x1080 RGB images
one hint that this may be happening is the reduced rolling shutter: as I learned from you, the old cameras had a sensor read-out time of around 60ms, cut to 20ms through line skipping - from early tests, 5D3 sensor readout seems to be twice as fast, which would mean it's 6 times as fast if it is actually reading the whole sensor - the facts that this seems farfetched, and that the final images are so soft, are indications that line-skipping is still there, and they went "crazy math" instead of "full readout" in order to avoid aliasing/moire
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squig
Veteran
"It's not a toomur!"
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Guest
Guest
When waiting for the Nikon Canon announcements, I was like...
Then Canon was like...
at first, I was like...
but now I'm like...
Then Canon was like...
at first, I was like...
but now I'm like...
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willardjackson
Member
Is it just me or are GH2 fanboys becoming the new red fanboys.
PERFECT comment! Truthful and honest.
Just one thing, Canon wanted to screw this up *cough* C300 *cough*
amazing!!
Ian-T
Veteran
LOL...You sir have got a great sense of humor. I just spit up my late night snack.
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Guest
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Haha thanks!
....Now just waiting for the Canon fans and/or the wise professionals, or even worse the "it's just business sense" people to start chiming in on why the 5d3 is exactly what it should be, and if you can't make something happen with it, then you should get into another industry..yada yada. For what it's worth, I don't think the 5dmk3 is bad, just sad that in 2012 we don't have a camera in the sub $5k range that has an image and codec that doesn't lead to "well it won't matter on the web" conversations.
There will be an opinion 'sway back', and the 5Dmk3 will start looking like the camera to have. Hey, they greatly reduced the moire, reduced jello, put in a headphone jack, improved low-light, and gave you time-code. What else do you want, right???
Here's the thing... it's a stills camera!!! Why is a stills camera even being considered the most exciting thing in video???? How did a stills camera accidentally become the hot sh*t? Ooops?
Technology has outpaced the video world, and in the 4years since dslr's accidentally out-did video cameras, and in the decade since the dawn of HD, there is still nothing worth getting excited about, and we still can't get something that doesn't have some form of artifacts. How come we were all waiting 3+ years for a dslr update?
When I first heard about the D90, I thought wow, we've been asking for an s35 sensor in a video camera for years, maybe video companies will see this and things would get better, but that was 2008, and this is 2012. Still nothing under $5k that I like, and even the 8bit C300 is $16k!
I am happy shooting on cell phones and dslr's, sony pdw530's, or whatever is out there, but I am not excited by their images. I get excited when I've done well, but I am not in love with the tools. And that is something that was lost with film it seems.
It's not that I can't do anything with these cameras, it's that I don't like them.
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squig
Veteran
Back in my music producing days we started out with 8bit samplers then progressed to 16bit and 24bit. We ended up going back to 8bit because we liked the "crunchiness".
After 3+ years Nikon and Canon have shown their full frame hand for the next 3 or so years. (disregarding the fact that they won't show full res vid samples). In the sub 5k price bracket we have the FS100, D800, 5D MKIII, and GH2 to choose from. The only other possible competitors on the horizon are the AF100 and FS100 successors, and the GH3. And then of-couse there's the next round of Canon and Nikon APS-C cameras. It's looking like either the MKIII or FS100 for me but I want to see some ALL-I files before I make a decision. The C-DSLR is the wild card but I think it's going to cost over 6k.
After 3+ years Nikon and Canon have shown their full frame hand for the next 3 or so years. (disregarding the fact that they won't show full res vid samples). In the sub 5k price bracket we have the FS100, D800, 5D MKIII, and GH2 to choose from. The only other possible competitors on the horizon are the AF100 and FS100 successors, and the GH3. And then of-couse there's the next round of Canon and Nikon APS-C cameras. It's looking like either the MKIII or FS100 for me but I want to see some ALL-I files before I make a decision. The C-DSLR is the wild card but I think it's going to cost over 6k.
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Guest
Guest
Haha, well right now we are dealing with 8bit recorded to low bit rate mp3. (metaphorically and video wise, of course) Mmmm, mp3.
btw, can't you get a lot more audio fidelity in 8 bits than you can with video?
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squig
Veteran
8bit audio can sound quite good as long as the sample rate is around 44.1khz but an audiophile can pick the difference between 8,16, and 24bit audio. After all these years of digital video we really shouldn't have to suffer 256 colours anymore. We've been working with millions of colours on computers for like 20 years now!
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
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Thank you.
Zephyrnoid
Veteran
"or the wise professionals, or even worse the "it's just business sense". well obviously I'm in both camps, BUT i'm also a returning pro which is a bit weird. So I too am ticked off at the deliberate hobbling of the <$5k cameras and boy have i seen this before, way back from Sony. It's a very old process that predates DSLRs.
I also sympathize with "...After all these years of digital video we really shouldn't have to suffer 256 colours anymore. We've been working with millions of colours on computers for like 20 years now!" too!
One thing you ought to think about, is as a relative newbie to video (only 15 yrs vs 35 yrs in still) I have come to appreciate the greater importance of all other aspects of the production, more than when i was a stills shooter. so now, as an exercise in self discipline, i deliberately hobble myself, so as to force myself to focus on the critical path.Sure the results are less than techinically ideal but the impact is way greater than when i was too focused on the minutiae of hyper-perfect detail etc.
And there's no such thing as Champagne at a Ginger Ale price-point."it's just business sense" and we should count ourselves so lucky to have what we do have at the price (Thank you Mr. Moore). Had some of the greats of Cinema been able to shoot with your G2 they may have made twice as many movies!
Now please don't hate me for this next one...
It is a fundamental dysfunction of the Millennial Generation (and i have a few in my family) to be so obsessed with the minute capabilities of the 'the tool'. I cannot identify a similar syndrome in prior generations. As a parent, i failed to defeat this in my own child or as an uncle in my nieces and nephews. It's a national tragedy that extends beyond digital imaging.
What I can tell you is that i do not see this in other countries, countries where there are no grandparent trust funds to play with. in Eastern Europe and Russia and other former Russian satellites I see people hacking consumer electronics and then doing marvelous things with the results...until the gear simply WEARS OUT.
So I leave you with this concept. Try to wear the gear down till it dies. It's what i do and when i come to replace, I've made my $ and squeezed every dime of value out of the stuff I worked with. I'll wager that the GH2 camp is going to be able to do that if they can stop updating the hacks long enough
This is a concept i learned from the Traditionalist Generation (I'm a Baby Boomer).
No One will award you an Oscar for having that 'just so' edge over the competition in IQ. Look at the history of film making and you'll understand.
Nikon and Canon can read the writing on the wall, as well as our gripes. It's just a matter of "business sense" catching up to THEM.
I do appreciate your time and greater knowledge of the technical stuff so keep it coming...
What to Do?
What to Do?
Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see the camera we desire (The Canon C300 with 60 or 120p + Auto focus/ Tracking etc..) for the price that we want ($8000 or less) until most of the world population has moved to 4k or 8k in TV or computer screens. When 1080p goes the way of SD then we will continue to ask for the same improvements at the next level. "We need 4k 60p," "We need 4k with more DR Etc..." History will repeat itself and only the cameras that cost $15,000+ will have most of what we want and need. It's really hard for the indie film maker to justify spending $16,000 every few years on a camera unless you can make that back in about 6 months or less.
Impossible for many and it does not make good business sense to others, So what to do?
I am seriously looking at getting the 5D Mk lll because I need a tool that I can be more creative with. I have stories to tell, so I must jump in the game at some point. If I can't tell a story with a camera like this and make money, then the C300 will not help me. I am hoping that the motion being "I frame" will be better than "GOP". I currently have the canon XH A1, do you think that the 5D lll is as sharp as that? I also wonder if some of the lack of focus I am seeing in the 5D lll image is do to the fact that some sceens were shot with too shallow DOF. For example I noticed that in one of the music videos that one eye was in focus and one eye was out of focus. Is that just artistic style or a problem of shooting wide open on a ff camera at night?
I also think we should keep on complaining about the cameras soft image. Why?
Mr. Canon to engineers: "Crank up the resolution a little bit more and shoot another video, DVX USERS are still complaining."
What to Do?
Unfortunately, I doubt we'll see the camera we desire (The Canon C300 with 60 or 120p + Auto focus/ Tracking etc..) for the price that we want ($8000 or less) until most of the world population has moved to 4k or 8k in TV or computer screens. When 1080p goes the way of SD then we will continue to ask for the same improvements at the next level. "We need 4k 60p," "We need 4k with more DR Etc..." History will repeat itself and only the cameras that cost $15,000+ will have most of what we want and need. It's really hard for the indie film maker to justify spending $16,000 every few years on a camera unless you can make that back in about 6 months or less.
Impossible for many and it does not make good business sense to others, So what to do?
I am seriously looking at getting the 5D Mk lll because I need a tool that I can be more creative with. I have stories to tell, so I must jump in the game at some point. If I can't tell a story with a camera like this and make money, then the C300 will not help me. I am hoping that the motion being "I frame" will be better than "GOP". I currently have the canon XH A1, do you think that the 5D lll is as sharp as that? I also wonder if some of the lack of focus I am seeing in the 5D lll image is do to the fact that some sceens were shot with too shallow DOF. For example I noticed that in one of the music videos that one eye was in focus and one eye was out of focus. Is that just artistic style or a problem of shooting wide open on a ff camera at night?
I also think we should keep on complaining about the cameras soft image. Why?
Mr. Canon to engineers: "Crank up the resolution a little bit more and shoot another video, DVX USERS are still complaining."
KyleProhaska
Veteran
I think you'll find your A1 is actually a good compliment to a 5D. The A1 will excel in wide shots over your 5D though (at least in my experience), and it will be noisier. Medium and wide shots is where the 5D will excel for you if you're used to the A1, and it'll afford you the DOF that your A1 couldn't unless you were many feet away and zoomed in.
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Veteran
In addition to the usual suspects (Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Nikon, and RED), I wouldn't be surprised if JVC (cough!) has a large-ish sensor camcorder coming.
JVC is being all silly & distracted with their tiny-sensor 4K camcorder, which is more about the future than the near-term. But if they can acquire a APS-C or larger sensor from another company, they might just deliver a compelling camcorder with it, and soon. True 1080p, decent codec, relatively low price. They've done similar in the past.
Unfortunately for JVC it sometimes seems like whenever they get it right, their moment in the sun is just that: A moment. Then the other cam companies step in with new, better hotness and JVC recedes from view again.
NAB is just a few weeks away ...
JVC is being all silly & distracted with their tiny-sensor 4K camcorder, which is more about the future than the near-term. But if they can acquire a APS-C or larger sensor from another company, they might just deliver a compelling camcorder with it, and soon. True 1080p, decent codec, relatively low price. They've done similar in the past.
Unfortunately for JVC it sometimes seems like whenever they get it right, their moment in the sun is just that: A moment. Then the other cam companies step in with new, better hotness and JVC recedes from view again.
NAB is just a few weeks away ...