5D Audio Equipment Question

J

Johnny Bueno

Active member
Hey all. Sorry if this has been overly discussed but I can't seem to find and exact answer that I'm looking for. I recently bought my first 5d mark ii. I primarily do photography at the moment. But I am also looking to shoot a short films as well as event video, but apparently the audio on the 5d is no good. I do not want to change the firmware with "Magic Lantern" as again I primarily do photography and am not sure if it would affect my photography settings. Sorry if that is a dumb thing to assume but like i said, I am new to video with DSLR's. If Magic Lantern does not affect the photography settings then please let me know. Either way I'm trying to record audio directly to the camera. I really would like to avoid having to record video and audio completely separate. I've read that the main problem with the 5dmk2 is AGC setting. That being said, what are my options? I have done a bit of research and this is the list ive came across:

Zoom H4n
Edirol R-44 4 track filed recorder
Tascam DR100
Beachtek DXA-SLR XLR

Now, I do not know if these are all able to properly record good audio directly to the camera. I have have just noticed that these are the most common inexpensive options out there. By inexpensive i mean under $1000. Again, what I'm looking for is an option that above all records good audio directly to the camera with multiple xlr ports for use with lavaliers and shotgun mics. And I would prefer not to change the firmware. Lastly, please let me know the pros and cons, if any, between the products above. I am extremely new to audio/audio equipment and any other suggestion are welcome. Thanks for your time.

John

Here is a good example of what im trying to do. The only thing is that I can't tell from the video if it is recording directly to the camera.

http://vimeo.com/13412895
 
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I just read that there is a new firmware from canon to get rid of the AGC and gives manual audio options. Sorry if thats is old news. But with that being said, which is the better choice for me? Thanks for any help. At the moment I'm torn betweet the Juicelink and the Zoom h4n. Thanks again
 
Hi,
I wanted to post a new question for the same reason. I do have a 5D Mark II and not interested in recording audio seperately. Finally i have bought a zoom h4n and from marker tek i bought a cable where i can do listen to the headset while recording. H4N is really seems to be a great product with plenty of features. Usually if am buying something i would like to learn about it as much as possible to i can use it better. But right now i don't have time. I was told i can use it on camera with the hot shoe and that will over ride my 5d audio recording.
I did that and audio recording was kinda okay. But it picked up every small button clicks, and so much of other noises from the camera itself which is disappointing. Now i spoke to canon they suggest me to buy NTG-2 from Rode. But i see mixed reviews and it's very long and there is no gain control on it.
My budget is less than 300 USD so i thought H4N will solve everything. But now i don't know what else to add, nor H4N and NTG-2 doesn't go along well either. Any other suggestion to replace my H4N and as a single solution would be great.
I will be using it for music videos (i will have the master track seperate) but planning to do a documentary short film and willing to do the on location audio.

Thanks!
Hariharan
www.ihariharan.com
 
ihariharan said:
Any other suggestion to replace my H4N and as a single solution would be great.
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The Zoom H4n is not a 'single solution' and it will not solve everything. It is one part of the audio puzzle. You should not use the mic's on the H4n itself - you should be taking advantage of the XLR inputs to record and mix audio from multiple sources - this is where the NTG-2 comes in handy. Just mounting the H4n (or any other audio recorder) onto the hotshoe and using the built in mic's to record audio will not be much of an improvement over the in-camera audio.

Do not think of these audio recorders as your all all-in-one audio solution. Think of them as merely a replacement for the missing audio hardware on the 5dmkII. The recorders basically give you all the audio funtionality (and more) of a professional camcorder. However, just like with a profesional camcorder, you need to plug in good quality mics or audio feeds in order to take advantage of the features.
 
the main problem with recording audio to dslr's is that you cannot monitor what is being recorded to disk. sure you can use one of the beachtek or juicedlink xlr adapters but you're only going to hear what that device is receiving, not what the camera is receiving. you'll have to be constantly flipping back to preview mode on the camera to make sure things sound good. not only that but the mic pre's have terrible noise!

as a professional sound mixer I am booked on a lot of gigs that are shooting to dslr's. my common approach is to send them a guide track of audio using a sennheiser g2 as a wireless hop from my sound devices 552. i've got this system dialed(most of the time). 7d, 60d, 5d, t2i, etc.. i can make the on camera recorded track sound good enough for most small time productions. however, i said "most of the time". I've found that different cameras(same model) will produce different sound. one clients 5d i worked with today sounded so much worse than one last week. and its all in the mic pre's.

if you are on a paying job there is no sense in running your only audio straight to camera, thats foolish. you don't know what you are getting(or what you're doing obviously). always use a 2nd system sound recording. bill accordingly and to make life easy, hire a sound guy. i've had so many gigs with first time shooters with dslr saying, "oh my god, having a sound guy is amazing!". if you can't do it right whats the point in doing it wrong and making your job that much harder?
 
manglerBMX said:
you'll have to be constantly flipping back to preview mode on the camera to make sure things sound good. not only that but the mic pre's have terrible noise!
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If sending the camera your audio signal, you have to turn the camera gain down at least to 1/4 (more likely 1/8) and feed the camera a quality audio signal. The problems with only being able to see the audio level and not hear what the camera is recording (unless playing back the file) are, you can't actually hear the quality of the recorded signal, and, it can get time consuming transferring the files to a computer in order to play them back and make judgments about audio quality.

manglerBMX said:
I've found that different cameras(same model) will produce different sound. one clients 5d i worked with today sounded so much worse than one last week. and its all in the mic pre's.
Click to expand...

I've gotten away with recording audio with the camera many times, but every now and then, "issues" become evident that have everything to do with not being able to monitor what's being recorded. If you can get away with it 9 times out of 10, but then have to spend time filtering or "fixing" audio in post on the 10th project, I'd say it's not worth it. On paying jobs, clients need to be made aware that recording the audio separately (double system sound) with DSLR is the best and safest option.

If they don't like that idea, I'd recommend shooting on a real video camera.
 
manglerBMX said:
the main problem with recording audio to dslr's is that you cannot monitor what is being recorded to disk. sure you can use one of the beachtek or juicedlink xlr adapters but you're only going to hear what that device is receiving, not what the camera is receiving. you'll have to be constantly flipping back to preview mode on the camera to make sure things sound good. not only that but the mic pre's have terrible noise!
Click to expand...

For a while now 5dmkII, 60d and 550d with magic lantern all support monitoring via the USB line just add a preamp to the usb connection and have have a full adjustable post chain ('whats going to disc') monitoring solution and it works great!, add a preamp with a limiter and you have amazingly healthy audio direct to camera, granted not as clean as a full split system but for most applications just awesome, checkout what I did with a cheap tascam DR05 recently http://liquidpaperonabee.blogspot.com/
 
Thanks everyone for great info. Unfortunately though, no one really answerered my question as to which of the above choices gave the best results recording directly to the camera and not separately. I completely understand that it its better to record audio separately and that it gives the best results. But thats not an option for me right now seeing as I know nothing about recording audio separately. What will help me right now is the now is simplicity of recording directly to the camera. So if anyone has experience with any of the above options or has link to a comparison video that would be amazing. Or also if any of the above require additional accessories for the setup. Thanks again.
 
What you need is a good quality preamp/mixer (like the Shure FP24 or Sound Devices mixpre), and a padded cable. Some of the devices you listed are decks and yet you say you want to record audio with the camera. You don't need a deck, you need a preamp/mixer.

Beachtek is noisy. Juicedlink is noisy.

There is no AGC with the 5DMKII and current firmware.

The tricks are - turn down the camera audio gain to at least 1/4 and feed the thing a good quality audio signal from a good quality preamp. Or you could match gain settings (in the camera and in your preamp) so the meters match and you are able to then rely upon the meter on your preamp/mixer (although with slightly less audio quality).
 
Johnny I agree with you I want a solution that mean I don't have to sync in post, but because these cameras have no limiters of any kind its my beleieve now that you have to run some kind of preamp in line to protect the top of the signal if you want to audio to be heathly. I brought a 600d a wee while back and tried running my gw100 radio mic straight in. It goes one of two ways,

1) With Radio Mic at +12, low noise and a healthy signal but the second someone gets excitied to talks slightly loud you clip, and man its ugly when you clip the signal on a canon dslr. (not like HVX202 with ALC)
2) With Radio Mic at Unity, Safe Signal that requires post boost (hopefully it doesn't clip) but you get nasty noise because of the post boost.

When I added the Tascam DR05 to my Workflow it means I can limit the signal, Generate -12 1k tone so I can calibrate my camera and have a buttons to adjust the signal whilst recording I think the icing on the cake would be a an XLR preamp and I fully agree with Chris, I wouldn't touch a Beachtek or Juicedlink and I can't afford a Shure or Sound Devices but i would look carefully at a Rolls,

http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=MX34c
http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=MX124

Niether of these however incorporate a limiter so if you have the coin to drop on the Sound Devices then go that way I've seen them on set and they are the bomb!
 
PhantomVideo said:
Johnny I agree with you I want a solution that mean I don't have to sync in post, but because these cameras have no limiters of any kind its my beleieve now that you have to run some kind of preamp in line to protect the top of the signal if you want to audio to be heathly. I brought a 600d a wee while back and tried running my gw100 radio mic straight in. It goes one of two ways,

1) With Radio Mic at +12, low noise and a healthy signal but the second someone gets excitied to talks slightly loud you clip, and man its ugly when you clip the signal on a canon dslr. (not like HVX202 with ALC)
2) With Radio Mic at Unity, Safe Signal that requires post boost (hopefully it doesn't clip) but you get nasty noise because of the post boost.

When I added the Tascam DR05 to my Workflow it means I can limit the signal, Generate -12 1k tone so I can calibrate my camera and have a buttons to adjust the signal whilst recording I think the icing on the cake would be a an XLR preamp and I fully agree with Chris, I wouldn't touch a Beachtek or Juicedlink and I can't afford a Shure or Sound Devices but i would look carefully at a Rolls,

http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=MX34c
http://www.rolls.com/product.php?pid=MX124

Niether of these however incorporate a limiter so if you have the coin to drop on the Sound Devices then go that way I've seen them on set and they are the bomb!
Click to expand...

I'm soo sorry but alot of this audio talk I just have a hard time understanding. I know nothing on the subject and I'm trying to learn. So are you saying that the Tascam DR05 is the better choice between all the ones I listed? Or the Rolls are? or I need both? Sorry again but thankyou everyone for your patience.
 
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Chris Santucci said:
What you need is a good quality preamp/mixer (like the Shure FP24 or Sound Devices mixpre), and a padded cable. Some of the devices you listed are decks and yet you say you want to record audio with the camera. You don't need a deck, you need a preamp/mixer.

Beachtek is noisy. Juicedlink is noisy.

There is no AGC with the 5DMKII and current firmware.

The tricks are - turn down the camera audio gain to at least 1/4 and feed the thing a good quality audio signal from a good quality preamp. Or you could match gain settings (in the camera and in your preamp) so the meters match and you are able to then rely upon the meter on your preamp/mixer (although with slightly less audio quality).
Click to expand...

Again, audio is a new new language for me. Thank you for the info and I understand what you are saying to a certain extent. But could you give me a list or link of the equipment I would need for the setup you are talking about? So the Shure FP24 is an example of what I need? And do I still need to sync in post going this route? Any other equipment required? Thanks for you help.
 
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