4K will require hardware update

@ CD
You are here in the FS700 forum. All the people whou bought the FS700 are IndyFilmMakers who hadnt THAT budget. So the only thing they wanna know is the price. It doenst matter if it has this or that feature or special SSDs that can create wormholes in space :D
Nonetheless ur Odyssey7Q is a very nice thing that can do very much and also is futureproof in my opinion but only for special clients, and thats the thing.
I think 99% in this forum here only need 10bit Slog2 and thats maybe what Sony will do with the soft/hardware update and a recorder that goes for 300 Dollar.
 
Dear Skylike,

I am sorry, but we do not offer a $300 recorder.

Our customers have asked us to include a good monitor in our recorders.

And our customers seem to like the versatility of our recorders.

And reliability is a very important aspect of our products. That is one reason why we do not use consumer-level SSD's.

I am sorry that we do not meet your needs.

We would have to sacrifice quality, versatility, reliability and quality monitoring to offer a $300 recorder.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
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Hey Dan

I don't doubt that your customers who have purchased or regularly use Arri's or c500's etc..are going to find your solution very attractive.

I guess the question being posed is whether people who own FS700's are going to go out and purchase the hardware to record 4K out of their cameras. I am guessing most will not spend the 6-7 g's necessary to properly record 4k as it is what they have spent on the camera itself and for many that initial spend was a bit of a stretch to begin with.

Personally I love the concept you have created, just not for recording 4K out of my FS700. If the Odyssey 7 can record a higher bit rate codec out of the FS700 than the whole deal becomes a lot more attractive. I noticed on your website that the 7 doesn't offer FS700 support. Does this mean that the Odyssey 7 won't work with the FS700 at all or that it won't record high frame rates, 2k or 4k?

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss, cheers

Rob
 
True North said:
Hey Dan

I don't doubt that your customers who have purchased or regularly use Arri's or c500's etc..are going to find your solution very attractive.

I guess the question being posed is whether people who own FS700's are going to go out and purchase the hardware to record 4K out of their cameras. I am guessing most will not spend the 6-7 g's necessary to properly record 4k as it is what they have spent on the camera itself and for many that initial spend was a bit of a stretch to begin with.

Personally I love the concept you have created, just not for recording 4K out of my FS700. If the Odyssey 7 can record a higher bit rate codec out of the FS700 than the whole deal becomes a lot more attractive. I noticed on your website that the 7 doesn't offer FS700 support. Does this mean that the Odyssey 7 won't work with the FS700 at all or that it won't record high frame rates, 2k or 4k?

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss, cheers

Rob
Click to expand...

That's what I am thinking, but more in regard to the Sony solution. Most people with the income to afford the Sony solution will go for the real deal, not something based on the FS700.
 
The thing that interests me the most is 2K RAW at 24, 30, 60, 120 and 240 fps. No other recorder...scratch that...no other camera in this price point can offer that. So many people are getting all excited about 5D MkIII or BMCC RAW but you pretty much stop at 30 fps. I shoot so much at 60 and 240 fps that I would be frustrated to compromise a production that required RAW everytime I wanted to go slo-mo. 4K compressed ProRes is the only 4K I really need and I'm glad to know that CD is hoping to include that down the road.
 
SKYLIKE said:
@ CD
You are here in the FS700 forum. All the people whou bought the FS700 are IndyFilmMakers who hadnt THAT budget. So the only thing they wanna know is the price. It doenst matter if it has this or that feature or special SSDs that can create wormholes in space :D
Nonetheless ur Odyssey7Q is a very nice thing that can do very much and also is futureproof in my opinion but only for special clients, and thats the thing.
I think 99% in this forum here only need 10bit Slog2 and thats maybe what Sony will do with the soft/hardware update and a recorder that goes for 300 Dollar.
Click to expand...

You obviously don't do your research. Your first couple of sentences are not right. Many of us here use the FS700 for broadcast all the time. We are not all indy film-makers, no respect to those guys. If the Odyssey isn't for you, look elsewhere. And $300? Really?
 
SKYLIKE said:
I think 99% in this forum here only need 10bit Slog2 and thats maybe what Sony will do with the soft/hardware update and a recorder that goes for 300 Dollar.
Click to expand...

Why would CD make that? the Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 already exists at $300 and will do exactly what you are asking, so go get that and use that. Is that what you were referring to or were you asking for it? It's a nice product but it is very barebones and unstable without the right SSD media which you have to test and figure out for yourself.

CD is the only option for Sony FS700 RAW or 4k besides Sony's offering, so there will certainly be some demand for it. But the more it can do the better and the more interest it will get. If it stays uncompressed-only (Dan said it may get 4k prores, which would go a long way toward making its 4k actually useable, but only if it happens) then it will sit in a much much smaller market than if it supports compression, and the FS700 will a much more popular camera if there is a flexible and affordable compressed (raw or non-raw, preferably both) 4k solution for it, which will, in turn, support the recording product that opens up its impressive capabilities.
 
True North said:
Hey Dan

I don't doubt that your customers who have purchased or regularly use Arri's or c500's etc..are going to find your solution very attractive.

I guess the question being posed is whether people who own FS700's are going to go out and purchase the hardware to record 4K out of their cameras. I am guessing most will not spend the 6-7 g's necessary to properly record 4k as it is what they have spent on the camera itself and for many that initial spend was a bit of a stretch to begin with.

Personally I love the concept you have created, just not for recording 4K out of my FS700. If the Odyssey 7 can record a higher bit rate codec out of the FS700 than the whole deal becomes a lot more attractive. I noticed on your website that the 7 doesn't offer FS700 support. Does this mean that the Odyssey 7 won't work with the FS700 at all or that it won't record high frame rates, 2k or 4k?

Thanks again for taking the time to discuss, cheers

Rob
Click to expand...

Dear Rob,

Our Odyssey7Q has over two times the logic space in the Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA - the computational heart of the unit), and other features that makes is faster. This extra logic space, is necessary, as we currently see it, to process the compressed 2K Raw or 4K Raw video stream from the FS700.

The Odyssey7 is suited for recording HD (1920 x 1080) up to 60 fps from the FS700 (current or upgraded models) in Avid DNxHD or (later) the other very popular codec.

But to handle the 2K Raw, at this time, we feel that we need the extra logic space to decompress the input stream in addition to performing all of the other tasks involved.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dan Keaton,
Correct me if I got this wrong but did you say that you already have a fs700 with the firmware and hardware update? If thats the case would you be able to upload something for us to watch?

Im new to the camcorder area coming from a 5d. Most of the stuff Ive seen thats NOT in slowmotion from the fs700 have not impressed me at all. It wasnt until I saw a test by "gene_can_sing" That I got more interested in the camera. (https://vimeo.com/46945154)

Is it likely that the firmware (s-log2) and hardware are going to affect the overall image of the fs700? (the way it looks so to speak) Easier to make it look cinematic? for those who think it looks "video-ish". I know this is a sensitive subject that angers many fs700 users but Im about to invest alot of my money and I get confused when I see so many fs700 videos out there that has that video feel to me, And only a couple very few that gives me the feeling Im looking for (once again im talking about 24p, not slow motion)

I apologise If I have offended anyone, but as I am new to this im just trying to learn.
 
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@ freshtea,

As always I try to emphasize that a better camera doesn't necessarily mean that your images are going to be any better. It's mainly because of the person behind the camera. A good cinematographer can do amazing stuff with a really basic camera. But if your a good shooter and can push your creative ideas to the limit, you will run into it's technical limitations sooner than others that don't. And that should be a good reason to upgrade to better equipment. Not because you think it's easier to shoot good images. Learning to shoot with limitations has taught me more than I did with a capable camera. Your practical skills and technical skill are more all-round, so you can operate a wide variety of cameras and know what's the right camera for the job. A good cinematographer is also learning all the time about lighting, camera movement/blocking, color, optical physics, framing... from many different sources and disciplines, so it's not only the camera that makes good images. Lazy shooters rarely produce stunning images.

There are plenty of good films out there shot with the FS700 and from people who surpassed the test stage. They're not always labeled clearly as shot with the FS700, but try to look for instance in some of the user groups or use the advanced search tools in Vimeo and look in the description or the tags. I'm pretty sure you'll be convinced the images out of a FS700 (before the upgrade) look great, if it is in the hands of a capable person.

I do agree that an even better codec, 10-bit 422 output, RAW will increase the capabilities of the camera dramatically and make this one of the most flexibel camera's and best bang for the buck around.

Cheers,

David
 
freshTEA said:
Dan Keaton,
Correct me if I got this wrong but did you say that you already have a fs700 with the firmware and hardware update? If thats the case would you be able to upload something for us to watch?
Click to expand...

Dear freshTEA,

Yes, we have the upgraded FS700 in our lab.

And we have the decompression module from Sony in our lab, which we have had precisely one week today.

We are working to make all of this work. We have images on the screen, and our engineers are working hard to perfect these images.

This is all part of the normal process of bringing a product to market.

As soon as practical, we will post some images.

And, as soon a practical, the updated FS700 + Odyssey7Q with our FS700 Recording Option will be in the hands of a filmmaker.

The best I can say for now, is "Stay Tuned".

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Thank you Dan for replying in such a short notice!

Thank you eliomys
I understand what your telling me and I didnt mean to sound lazy in any way. I think in order to truly make something cinematic, well then it takes hard work. It's just that coming from a 5d mark 3 and it being pretty easy to get a pleasing image "cinematic" from (It has its faults but none the less). And alot of times I wont have time to set up a advanced setup but I think what im asking is: Is it hard to get that pleasing dslr-cinematic image out of the fs700, Like I said it obviously can be done since I find "gene_can_sing" pleasing. Like I said im pretty new to this stuff so bear with me :)
 
freshTEA said:
Thank you Dan for replying in such a short notice!

Thank you eliomys
I understand what your telling me and I didnt mean to sound lazy in any way. I think in order to truly make something cinematic, well then it takes hard work. It's just that coming from a 5d mark 3 and it being pretty easy to get a pleasing image "cinematic" from (It has its faults but none the less). And alot of times I wont have time to set up a advanced setup but I think what im asking is: Is it hard to get that pleasing dslr-cinematic image out of the fs700, Like I said it obviously can be done since I find "gene_can_sing" pleasing. Like I said im pretty new to this stuff so bear with me :)
Click to expand...

Hey FreshTea. I don't do anything special. I think the main difference is I shoot with Cinegamma 1 the most, while most people use Cinegamma 4. Cine 4 has better highlights, but Cine 1 has much better shadow detail. I tweaked Cine 4 a bit recently so it looks a bit more like Cine 1 now, so I might revisit that profile. But right out of the box, Cine 4 is too contrasty, saturated and lack shadow detail compared to Cine 1. Also, in low light, no matter how I tweak it, Cine 4 just cannot compare to Cine 1. Way more macro-blocking and some ugly noise.

I DP'd 10 spots for the Disney Channel last week where I used Cine 1. Shot indoors on a huge Cyc painted baby blue, and the client LOVED the images. The colors looked so fantastic and it just had that nice, muted look which Cine 1 does so well. But yeah, going to give my tweaked Cine 4 a revisit when I have a free moment.

Oh yes, and the AVCHD / Quicktime highlight clipping issue is a big one. I always either remap the value to the full range using 5DtoRGB or do the Levels trick in After Effects where the values are remapped to 15-235 to get the full DR. This makes a huge difference.

But yeah, seeing the S-Log tests, I'm thinking that will soon be the de-facto profile. I love what I see out of it so far.
 
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Hey freshTea,

Check out this S-Log 2 test by Freiheit. All I can say is WOW. I love the look of this profile. It just has a really nice feel to it. So impressed. If this is what's coming to the FS700, I'm really excited. I heard S-Log can be internally as well, even though I know it will be better through a recorder. Just hoping for a little broadcast friendly internal codec bump with a 10bit recorder option. I will be really happy.

https://vimeo.com/66405250
 
Hi gene_can_sing,

I tried to color correct one of the highres tests Freiheit has put on Vimeo. The big file he put on there for download was a 1 GB mp4 file and in 8-bit. That would be a similar compression to the internal AVCHD of the FS700. AVCHD holds up if you shoot quite close to the look you want and then do only a small color correction in post.

S-Log needs a bigger push in color correction because it is very flat and as expected I saw the banding in the skies getting a lot worse and the strong highlights (especially the reds) starting to show compression artifacts, like normally happens with an 8-bit 4.2.0 codec. Freiheit recorded this externally on an Atomos in a 10 bit wrapper (?), but the tests were transcoded to an 8-bit mp4 file before being put on Vimeo. Only his last filmpiece 'Minatomirai', the one you mentioned, was probably color corrected in 10-bit before being uploaded on Vimeo. That one, I must agree, looks stunning. I enjoyed watching it and even after watching it several times I could hardly spot any artifacts in the image that were not related to the Vimeo conversion.

So in short: S-Log on AVCHD = bad idea; S-Log on 8-bit 422 codec in 10-bit wrapper = a big maybe; S-Log on 10-bit 422 codec = definite way to go.

So Sony, this is what most people are waiting for to make this a broadcast approved camera.

Cheers,

David
 
If the S-Log doesn't come in 10bit, the whole point of S-Log being so flat is pointless. 8bit grading on a flat-profile is not logical.
 
Hi FreshTEA,

I didn't mean to offend you in any way ;-) It's just that some people tend to forget this.

Maybe the way you refer to the cinematic image the 5D Mark III produces, has something to do with the shallow depth of field (the lack of focus). That is purely a result of the sensor size. The Canon 5D has a full frame (FF) sensor, where the FS700 has a super 35 (S35) sensor size. Although S35 (actually 35mm) is smaller then FF, it has been the standard for more than a hundred years in cinema. But since the existence of the Canon 5D Mk II everybody fell in love with that ultra shallow depth of field. But if you look carefully to most movies in cinema, you will hardly ever see this look. Some love it, some hate it, some have moved on past that. It's like a trend, just like the slowmo images you've seen last year, mainly because of the feature on the FS700. Use them all sparingly to make great movies, I would like to add.

Cheers,

David
 
eliomys said:
Hi FreshTEA,

I didn't mean to offend you in any way ;-) It's just that some people tend to forget this.

Maybe the way you refer to the cinematic image the 5D Mark III produces, has something to do with the shallow depth of field (the lack of focus). That is purely a result of the sensor size. The Canon 5D has a full frame (FF) sensor, where the FS700 has a super 35 (S35) sensor size. Although S35 (actually 35mm) is smaller then FF, it has been the standard for more than a hundred years in cinema. But since the existence of the Canon 5D Mk II everybody fell in love with that ultra shallow depth of field. But if you look carefully to most movies in cinema, you will hardly ever see this look. Some love it, some hate it, some have moved on past that. It's like a trend, just like the slowmo images you've seen last year, mainly because of the feature on the FS700. Use them all sparingly to make great movies, I would like to add.

Cheers,

David
Click to expand...

I have to agree with freshTEA on this one. The 5D has a very nice looking image, regardless of the shallow DOF. Canon did a good job with the default setting color science. If you don't like to grade much and you like the Canon look; you are golden with the 5D.

I feel like the FS700 default settings are Horrible. You have to explore and mess with the profiles a little bit (not nearly as much as the FS100) to get a good look. When I first saw FS700 tests, I did not like the look of the camera probably because they were using the default settings. Then I saw a few good tests so I bought it and I really like it. The FS700 has a much more neutral look than the 5D which I like because I love to grade.

But yes, Freiheit's latest test looked so fantastic. So please Sony once again, just a broadcast approved internal codec and 10 bit recorder option. 4K RAW for me is just too much to deal with. 240fps 2K RAW is way, way too much for me to deal with. Good compressed codecs is where I want to be.
 
eliomys said:
Hi gene_can_sing,

I tried to color correct one of the highres tests Freiheit has put on Vimeo. The big file he put on there for download was a 1 GB mp4 file and in 8-bit. That would be a similar compression to the internal AVCHD of the FS700. AVCHD holds up if you shoot quite close to the look you want and then do only a small color correction in post.

S-Log needs a bigger push in color correction because it is very flat and as expected I saw the banding in the skies getting a lot worse and the strong highlights (especially the reds) starting to show compression artifacts, like normally happens with an 8-bit 4.2.0 codec. Freiheit recorded this externally on an Atomos in a 10 bit wrapper (?), but the tests were transcoded to an 8-bit mp4 file before being put on Vimeo. Only his last filmpiece 'Minatomirai', the one you mentioned, was probably color corrected in 10-bit before being uploaded on Vimeo. That one, I must agree, looks stunning. I enjoyed watching it and even after watching it several times I could hardly spot any artifacts in the image that were not related to the Vimeo conversion.

So in short: S-Log on AVCHD = bad idea; S-Log on 8-bit 422 codec in 10-bit wrapper = a big maybe; S-Log on 10-bit 422 codec = definite way to go.

So Sony, this is what most people are waiting for to make this a broadcast approved camera.

Cheers,

David
Click to expand...

Whilst i totally agree that 8 bit S LOG may not be the base basis for grading, to see banding in the skies getting worse does flag up whether your grading pipeline is truncating anything because if anything skies should be much better in Slog than mid and shadows, it would be these lower tones that break up and band more quickly, not the highlights due to the distribution with the log curve. I presume that slog is stuffed into the normal AVCHD container and therefore you may be truncating below 16 and above 235.

I'm just saying you might want to double check the pipeline you're using because there may be something off with that?

cheers
Paul
 
Eliomys:
:) no worries. To be honest I dont know what it is that rubs me the wrong way.. When i cant explain something I go with my guts!
My gut also tells me that the s-log clip geen_can_sing posted looks a lot closer to what in looking for! 8-bit or not, im used to 5d technicolor cinestyle. And that is 4:2:0 8-bit, im thinking of buying a external recorder none the less. 4:2:2 with atleast 10-bit when im doing stuff that i want to grade more. 8-bit for when i shoot events or random stuff that i dont need to grade so much.

Even if a change in the internal codec would have been sick i know (dont rememer the name of the guy from NAB2013) said that the internal codecs will be the same. But one can always hope :)
 
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