4K will require hardware update

Dear Jshbckr,

We expect to release pricing for the recording options and SSD's next week.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
EDIT: you answered my SSD question before I even asked it. Thanks, Dan! I'm excited to hear more. And I'm glad to hear that you're including DNxHD with the Odysseys.
 
Last edited:
Dan,

What kind of options for compressed 4K will be available on the 7Q? I know you have uncompressed listed, but I'm hoping for something along the lines of a 10bit ProRes 4K as on the Ki Pro Quad. Also, will there be any options for compressed 2K at 240fps? I expect to be using S-Log 2 in 10bit rather than RAW for most of my productions so I'm curious as to what frame-rate and and compressed codec options there will be. I know you can't talk much about ProRes right now, but any info would help.

Thanks.
 
Dan Keaton said:
http://www.avid.com/static/resources/US/documents/DNxHD.pdf

I do not see 4K listed in the Avid Whitepaper, but they may have 4K in their plans, I just do not know at this moment.

With the Odyssey7, one can record in the Avid DNxHD-36, -100, -145, -220 (all 8-Bit) and -220x (10-Bit) without a watermark, and without purchasing any extra cost options.

But these are limited (or so it seems) for now to 720p (1280 x 720) and 1080 (1920 x 1080).
Click to expand...

Dan;

It maybe the whitepaper is somewhat dated, or written specficly for media Composer / Symp..

In any case i can confirm that in Avid|DS i can write to DnxHD codec's in HD, 2K & 4K, and it seems any custom raster size, the bitrate stays identical, here's some screen grabs of movie inspector's thoughts on 24 frames of a linear gradeient in 4K Dci, 2K Dci and HD/RGB projects;

HD RGB.jpgHD YUV.jpg
2k RGB.jpg2k YUV.jpg
4k RGB.jpg4k YUV.jpg

note the somewhat odd 4K/RGB seeming to be 2K scaled inside the wrapper, while the 4K/YUV shows as 4K... odd indeed...
 
Dermot said:
Dan;

It maybe the whitepaper is somewhat dated, or written specficly for media Composer / Symp..

In any case i can confirm that in Avid|DS i can write to DnxHD codec's in HD, 2K & 4K, and it seems any custom raster size, the bitrate stays identical, here's some screen grabs of movie inspector's thoughts on 24 frames of a linear gradeient in 4K Dci, 2K Dci and HD/RGB projects;
Click to expand...

Hey Dermot (perhaps you missed an email of mine from a while back?)

That's very interesting, it must be limited to DS or similar as i've never seen any options beyond 1080p. I wish Avid would tidy up their codec implementation for the rest of the world, they'd clean up even if they charged a small amount for them.

Now that looks like a 4K -> 2K process? I've been doing very similar with some nice results too.

cheers
Paul
 
today i just had borrowed "firmware upgraded FS700" from Sony Japan for little test.


it's still beta/test based firmware but the S-Log2 is active already so i'll test with the internal AVCHD and the external ProRes recording.


let's see how it goes and i will post the review and sample footages later!


I'm so excited especially when i saw the menu on the 3rd image below. WOW!
(once again, this FS700 is only firmware upgraded, not the hardware upgraded from the factory)

FS700_EQUIPPED01.jpg

FS700_EQUIPPED02.jpg

FS700_EQUIPPED03.jpg
 
Hi freiheit,

I'm very happy with your postings here. Finally someone who can provide us with some hands-on experience. I see you have an external recorder attached. Could you check if there is a 1080p 10-bit 422 signal now externally, so we could see benefit from the S-Log. Any new output formats added in the menu? Did you find other new options in the menu so far?

Cheers,
David
 
freiheit said:
today i just had borrowed "firmware upgraded FS700" from Sony Japan for little test.

it's still beta/test based firmware but the S-Log2 is active already so i'll test with the internal AVCHD and the external ProRes recording.
Click to expand...

How do you know it doesn't have the internal upgrade? Just thinking that if the firmware is reporting 4K then what happens if you choose that. Any idea on what the upgrade is doing? Is it enabling something or enhancing something i wonder.

Anyway, if you could make some prores files comparing slog2 to a normal gamma that would be very useful, especially if you can shoot a grey scale chart or macbeth chart? With slog2 enabled can you continue to alter the other picture profile adjustments - black gamma and knee? I would have thought not, but they're not greyed out.

I assume that SDI out? Do you have anything that would record HDMI (asking for different reasons...)

cheers
Paul
 
hi david,
yes, i have a ATOMOS Samurai right here so i can do the test with S-Log2 for both Internal/External recording. However, only this firmware upgrade let the FS700 for 8bit signal output, not 10bit.

that was my first question for Sony people but they said that we need to do hardware upgrade for output with greater bit depth. right now they can't mention that specific bit depth... hope RAW signal has 10bit depth, at least...we will see!

so this time i need to stick with all 8bit data for testing. however if i can see whatever the difference between heavily compressed AVCHD(8bit 4:2:0) and ProRes 4:2:2 with Samurai, of course i will post the review with sample footages.

BTW, when i set the S-Log2 on the FS700, the base ISO is jump to 2000, same number with F5.

and one more thing, with this firmware upgrade, now we can do "SDI Rec trigger", that's nice future!

I will post more later!

-----

freiheit
https://vimeo.com/user3743407
 
Could you check if there is a 1080p 10-bit 422 signal now externally, so we could see benefit from the S-Log.
Click to expand...

Hi freiheit,

The reason I asked this was because, and you now confirmed it, the FS700 can't do 10-bit (or 12-bit) 422 without a hardware upgrade. What still remains a mystery is if the hardware upgrade will provide us with a 1080p 10-bit 422 option and not only the 12-bit (16-bit) RAW output. The RAW output is sensor information that is unreadable for most external recorders unless it can 'debayer' (decode) it and turn it into a codec. That process uses extra processor power that is not build into the FS700 at this point and therefore needs the sony HXR-IF5 adapter module in front of their recorder or the extra software and processor power of the Odyssey7Q.

At this point I only need 1080p as a professional documentary maker, 4K maybe in a couple of years, so I'd like to be able to use a broadcast approved HD codec on the FS700 and not RAW. The camera is perfect for documentary in many ways: it is lightweight, has a powered e-mount so even optically stabilized lenses work on it, has good color rendering with the cinegammas, has ND filters build in, with the right rig perfect for run and gun, long battery life... But it lacks the codec minimum bitrate of 50 mbits or 10-bit 422 output. Switching to RAW recording for a documentary maker is a NO GO, because I shoot tens or hundreds of hours of footage on every project. Do the math and see how many HDD's you need to carry (and buy) for that, not to mention that you need twice the amount if you make a back-up!

I'd like to see the FS700 work with S-Log and 10-bit output in 1080p without the steep financial upgrade path to a F5 or external RAW recorder. Many of us already own an external recorder. I hope somebody at Sony is listening!

Cheers,

David
 
@ eliomys, I agree with you 100% although I doubt we will be getting an internal 10 bit codec. I would just be happy with a codec similar to the c300 even though it's only 8 bit but at least it's broadcast friendly. I would get way more use out of a slightly better internal codec than something that goes to a recorder. PLEASE Sony, please.
 
Dear Dermot,

I was worried that the Avid DNxHD Whitepaper might have been out-of-date.

I do not know what the current actual specs are for Avid Media Composer (but to be fair, I have not taken time, so far to research this.)

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dear Tony,

I will try to get answers for what comrpessed options we will have at 2K and 4K from the FS700.

Our engineers are working very hard to get Avid DNxHD ready, and I do not like to bother them too often.

Recording a compressed codec at 240 fps is an immense task, that is a huge amount of computer processing.

Recording a compressed codec at 4K at 60 fps also requires a great deal of computer processing.

While our engineers may have detailed answers for me about this, the real proof is when we have it running and we can prove that it can work under these conditions.

For the FS700, not only do we have to compress the data, we have to decompress the incoming 2K Raw or 4K Raw, so that adds to the workload.



Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Dan Keaton said:
Dear Dermot,

I was worried that the Avid DNxHD Whitepaper might have been out-of-date.

I do not know what the current actual specs are for Avid Media Composer (but to be fair, I have not taken time, so far to research this.)

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Click to expand...

Dan
MC/Symp is locked to a max of 1080, where DS is resolution independant, the white paper might just be written by someone with little knoledge of anything but MC, and therefore the worldview presented is defined by the features of MC ;-)

But yea, DNxHD seems to be raster size independant (i'm running out screeners at 768x362 this afternoon in DNx36 for example)

I don't own a FS700, but might trade up from the pair FS100's i own currenly, but only once i can target a ROI that is sustanable, and that information is becomeing more solid every week

I would be a customer for two of your recorders, and prefer a purchase option for the codec's i will use

d
 
@ eliomys and gene,
yes, i totally agree with you guys! that 4K2K upgrade announcement sounds fantastic but i personally like the FS700 with minimum setting. so it's gonna be great if we could get more broadcast friendly codec internally, yes.

i know we all wanna get that C300+C-Log kinda quality in our hands but first we must face with F5. we have big brother in the house and it's very, very tough to compete. the big daddy Sony never let FS700 to do that anyway.

personally i am very happy with FS700. if this firmware upgrade, S-Log2 with 8bit, gives bit more space we can play with, it's gonna be awesome already.

once again, when the S-Log2 selected, the base ISO jump up to the 2000. but it's not like that we set ISO2000 with normal gamma. i am testing with other popular setting like AbleCine's AB_NEXLOG, Mr. Alister Chapman's great setting(which i uses a lot), and more. but the S-Log2 looks pretty impressive.

soon i will post the sample footages, internal AVCHD and ATOMOS Samurai ProRes 422 HQ without my grading, of course not. it's still beta test version of firmware but Sony people is kind enough to let me upload the footages, it's confirmed.

Cheers,


-----

freiheit
https://vimeo.com/user3743407
 
@ gene_can_sing

I do agree that a better internal codec would be the best solution for everybody, added with the advantages of the external 4K RAW recording for some who benefit from it. But I'm afraid the internal codec is baked in a chip inside that won't be replaced. My guess is that sony will replace a small board for the processing of the signal coming out of the 3G-SDI port. Maybe they'll change it to 6G-SDI to offer higher bitrates. That opens possibilities that we can only speculate about, but I'm hoping for the best of both worlds. Unless it has something to do with copyright infringement (the RED case).

Using an external recorder offers me several advantages, but it mainly saves me a lot of time. Recording in ProRes or DNxHD makes the editing process so much easier. No more transcoding the AVCHD and much less processor intensive. It means you still can edit on older computers. The XAVC format on the other hand sounds promising, although I still haven't had the chance to edit with it. Maybe in a next version of the FS700? Or through an external recorder? But then rather the pro XAVC than the prosumer version XAVC-S imho.
 
@ freiheit,

I'm very eager to see your footage. Can you shoot something with a lot of bright red and maybe if you find the time to shoot a gradient with the same color (like an open blue sky). That will be the ultimate test to see how well the 8-bit codec will hold up in color correction. If not the red will fall apart in blocks and the sky will have a lot of banding. The choice for the base iso of 2000 might have something to do with that. To avoid banding many people shoot at a higher iso to add some noise to the image.

Cheers,

David
 
here's the first small test with S-Log2 equipped FS700.

https://vimeo.com/64956472

i only had few hours since last night so i promise i will post more extreme test later on.

@ eliomys,
yes, i definitely will do the test with blue sky, dark room/tunnel to landscape, low light condition, chromakey, and of course, S-Log2 with 240fps!

please download the original data and play with it!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top