4K will require hardware update

[SergeSmArt]

hum.
The FS700 was always the camera a lot of people could afford .... but now ....
7Q + FS700 reording option for Raw + many SSDs when u want to record a lot of highspeed or 4k = ur are very fast at 5000$
When u get with the Sony Hardware Upgrade (prices of 300$ floating around) and Firmware Upgrade (maybe for free) the additional 10bit and 4.2.2 output ... and can immediately with a 800$ recorder (most of the people already have on) do ProRes 4.2.2 10bit with Slog2 .... who cares for RAW????
I thought the 7Q was THE thing on NAB but now its a mixed feeling with those prices. Check the Atomos Blade (also OLED and ProRes Recording for 1000$)

If its just that "RAW thing" for the FS700 users its to pricey in comparison in my opinion.

OK ...Let's see what we be able to get and for how much:

1. "The Adventures of Odysseus" ( in August ) -->

Monitor- Recorder Odyssey7Q $2295
SSD 480GB - $1200 ( X 2 = $2400)
using with FS700 $1495
----------------------
$6190
and we DO NOT GET 4K RAW, only 2K RAW and 4K Uncompressed up to 30 fps ( not even 60fps )

==============
Promised Sony Update:

HXR-IFR5 interface unit $2000 ?
AXR-R5 RAW Recorder $5350
AXS-512S24 512Gb Memory Card $1800 X2=$3600
AXS-CR1 card reader $550
============================
Total:$9700 with 1 card or $11500 with 2 cards

..but we will have:

1. 4K 16 bit linear RAW at 24p/30p/60p, with 4 seconds of 120fps recording in 4K
2. 2K 16 bit linear RAW at 24p/30p/60p,120p, 180p, 240p for unlimited time
3. AVCHD simultaneous recording at 24p/30p/60p
------------------------
Blackmagic Production Camera 4K - $4000 ( in JULY )
( First camera with 6G-SDI output )

1. Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) 4K at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
2. CinemaDNG 4K RAW at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
3. Global shutter !!!
and ALL you have to buy for using BMPC is a STANDARD SSD-disks !!! - as many as you want ! ..
( I pre-order BMPC camera, so I'll have it in July )

( ..even Aaton Penelope Delta using STANDART SSD-drives in 4-SSD DeltaPack ... )
------------------------
All this remind me old story of so called "ZIP"-DRIVES .. 100 MB each ... and DVD disks 4GB each ... I don't use any of them in the last 10 years

...tomorrow more cameras and recorders will step into 6G-SDI and this "The Adventures of Odysseus" will be obsolete))

 

[SKYLIKE]

( I pre-order BMPC camera, so I'll have it in July ) [/I]

u wont :>

We arent talking BMPC here. And if u just take the factors price and recording options (image quality) u are doing something wrong.
I would never ever use the BMPC in a paid job. Its called Production camera but u wont work on a real production with this. Its just not made to get a job done.
The FS700 is something u can work with just of the facts u have "buttons"

 

[nyvz]

I'm also very curious about what 2k/HD RAW looks like, specifically how they are downscaling or line-skipping from the full 4k sensor? From the sound of it, 2k RAW will be the primary use for the 7Q among FS700 owners, so this seems like an important question. line-skipping < binning < per-channel downscaling I imagine, but I'd also worry about getting sharp luma from 2k RAW bayer that is just RGBG pixel samples unless there is a lot of aliasing also present.

Sony's R5 has a formfactor that seems like a bit of a dealbreaker, and 7Q's 4k uncompressed bitrates sound like a bit of a dealbreaker given currently available specs (of course these can change and more light may be shed on the specifics of them that may change things), so RED and Blackmagic start looking a bit more interesting for work that calls for >2k. I should wait for more info from Dan, though, since maybe they will be able to allow compressed 4k DNxHD or something as well.

I am excited about the possibility of S-log2 coming to my FS700, though, since that will go a long way toward fixing some of the main issues I have with the camera.

 

[nyvz]

Blackmagic Production Camera 4K - $4000 ( in JULY )
( First camera with 6G-SDI output )

1. Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) 4K at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
2. CinemaDNG 4K RAW at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
3. Global shutter !!!
and ALL you have to buy for using BMPC is a STANDARD SSD-disks !!! - as many as you want ! ..
( I pre-order BMPC camera, so I'll have it in July )

( ..even Aaton Penelope Delta using STANDART SSD-drives in 4-SSD DeltaPack ... )

Yes 4k prores does start to look more desirable, as do off the shelf SSDs, but keep in mind dropped frames are real and a very real possibility with any off the shelf SSD, especially if you happen to get bad one or havent tested (or don't know how to test) it thoroughly.

Where are you seeing any format up to 60fps on the BMPC? even 1080 says only 60i at most in the specs. High framerates will be a deciding factor for most, as will be availability and image quality. Also keep in mind the sensitivity for the BMPC hasn't been published and it is expected to be lower than the cameras we are used to due to the global shutter, so it could be a great studio camera but might not be so great as a replacement for other more fully-featured cameras in some situations.

As for the Penelope Delta... did that ever get released after being shown at NAB over a year ago? And didn't Aaton just go out of business?

Also you will need more SSDs for that 7Q configuration, since 2x480GB likely only gives you about 30min of recording on the 7Q in a 4k uncompressed mode, whereas 512GB should give you about an hour of 4k raw on the R5.

 

[DanKov]

What a bummer. I was ready to slap my money down for the 7q but it's still 5k with even just one 480 ssd or 2x 240's. Any word on if the included compressed recording options cover 2K? If it includes 10bit 2k 422, then it may be worth it for the extra pixels over a blade or used pix240.

 

[SergeSmArt]

...I would never ever use the BMPC in a paid job....

I don't care about "paid job" anymore ...

 

[nyvz]

What a bummer. I was ready to slap my money down for the 7q but it's still 5k with even just one 480 ssd or 2x 240's. Any word on if the included compressed recording options cover 2K? If it includes 10bit 2k 422, then it may be worth it for the extra pixels over a blade or used pix240.

I think a lot of the really critical questions are still up in the air and we may not know until we start seeing footage or get to try out the 7Q. They haven't said what formats the DNxHD recording will cover, clearly it will be 1080p, but we dont know if it will also allow 2k and 4k. It's also possible that CD could offer some great recording modes like 4k or 2k modes that originate from 4k RAW but are debayered in the 7Q, and those modes could possibly offer a lot more image quality than what we are used to since RAW on a sony camera could help improve access to better color science, more DR and better scaling.

I'm a bit skeptical of 2k RAW on a 4k camera since bayer is not so easy to scale properly and 2k bayer doesn't seem like it would have enough detail for good 2k delivery, but 2k YUV or RGB done properly in the 7Q could still be quite good and a lot better than poorly processed 1080p.

If CD's FS700 option can get 4k DNxHD (and maybe even other compressed formats, would be great to have a 4k XAVC equivalent for longer-form shooting) and can get a great looking compressed 2k YUV/RGB output that goes from 1-240fps... no one will be thinking about BMPC's

 

[SergeSmArt]

....Also you will need more SSDs for that 7Q configuration, since 2x480GB likely only gives you about 30min of recording on the 7Q in a 4k uncompressed mode, whereas 512GB should give you about an hour of 4k raw on the R5....

So.. this is what I feel about Odyssey from the beginning .. Original Sony option look better, even for more money... .. and, Noah let me say THANK YOU for your fantastic profile for FS-700 I use it all the times and so happy with it!

 

[Dan Keaton]

OK ...Let's see what we be able to get and for how much:

1. "The Adventures of Odysseus" ( in August ) -->

Monitor- Recorder Odyssey7Q $2295
SSD 480GB - $1200 ( X 2 = $2400)
using with FS700 $1495
----------------------
$6190
and we DO NOT GET 4K RAW, only 2K RAW and 4K Uncompressed up to 30 fps ( not even 60fps )

==============
Promised Sony Update:

HXR-IFR5 interface unit $2000 ?
AXR-R5 RAW Recorder $5350
AXS-512S24 512Gb Memory Card $1800 X2=$3600
AXS-CR1 card reader $550
============================
Total:$9700 with 1 card or $11500 with 2 cards

..but we will have:

1. 4K 16 bit linear RAW at 24p/30p/60p, with 4 seconds of 120fps recording in 4K
2. 2K 16 bit linear RAW at 24p/30p/60p,120p, 180p, 240p for unlimited time
3. AVCHD simultaneous recording at 24p/30p/60p
------------------------
Blackmagic Production Camera 4K - $4000 ( in JULY )
( First camera with 6G-SDI output )

1. Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) 4K at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
2. CinemaDNG 4K RAW at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
3. Global shutter !!!
and ALL you have to buy for using BMPC is a STANDARD SSD-disks !!! - as many as you want ! ..
( I pre-order BMPC camera, so I'll have it in July )

( ..even Aaton Penelope Delta using STANDART SSD-drives in 4-SSD DeltaPack ... )
------------------------
All this remind me old story of so called "ZIP"-DRIVES .. 100 MB each ... and DVD disks 4GB each ... I don't use any of them in the last 10 years

...tomorrow more cameras and recorders will step into 6G-SDI and this "The Adventures of Odysseus" will be obsolete))

Dear SergeSmArt,

Please forgive me for my brief answer, as I am traveling.

Please understand that we want to record 4K Raw, but we need to obtain permission from Sony first.

The Odyssey7Q has hardware support for HD-SDI 6G. But since this is not a ratified SMPTE standard yet, we do not stress this fact.

I need need to address the issue of SSD's later, in much more depth as I have the time.

But, I promise to do so.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[Gene Sung]

If CD's FS700 option can get 4k DNxHD (and maybe even other compressed formats, would be great to have a 4k XAVC equivalent for longer-form shooting) and can get a great looking compressed 2k YUV/RGB output that goes from 1-240fps... no one will be thinking about BMPC's

Hey Dan,

Can something like this work? A compressed 4K with a decent codec? For me, RAW storage is a serious issue as I just don't have that kind of drive space nor do I want to deal with the headache of storing all that RAW. But a compressed 4K would be great. Obviously it won't have the post flexibility of RAW, but would still be great for effects shots and where you need lots of post cropping.

Not sure why Sony would not allow that as a non-RAW 4K would not compete at all with the F5 and up.

 

[Dan Keaton]

I think a lot of the really critical questions are still up in the air and we may not know until we start seeing footage or get to try out the 7Q. They haven't said what formats the DNxHD recording will cover, clearly it will be 1080p, but we dont know if it will also allow 2k and 4k. It's also possible that CD could offer some great recording modes like 4k or 2k modes that originate from 4k RAW but are debayered in the 7Q, and those modes could possibly offer a lot more image quality than what we are used to since RAW on a sony camera could help improve access to better color science, more DR and better scaling.

I'm a bit skeptical of 2k RAW on a 4k camera since bayer is not so easy to scale properly and 2k bayer doesn't seem like it would have enough detail for good 2k delivery, but 2k YUV or RGB done properly in the 7Q could still be quite good and a lot better than poorly processed 1080p.

If CD's FS700 option can get 4k DNxHD (and maybe even other compressed formats, would be great to have a 4k XAVC equivalent for longer-form shooting) and can get a great looking compressed 2k YUV/RGB output that goes from 1-240fps... no one will be thinking about BMPC's

Dear Noah,

We are working hard to have our FS700 code ready soon (within the next month).

We have the necessary documentation from Sony, and our engineers are implementing it.

We are promised another vital piece from Sony next week.

When we have this ready, we will attempt to demonstrate the image quality.

Based on our discussions with Sony, I feel that the 2K Quality will be very good, but my opinion does not really matter. Thus, as soon as possible, probably in about a month, we will make actual recordings available.

We have one of the updated Sony FS700's and expect a second one soon.


Initially, we will be recording Sony FS700 in Raw, in Cinema DNG.

Avid DNxHD, up to 220x does not support 2K.

I do not know (yet) if Avid DNxHD-444 does or not, but as soon as this is ratified by SMPTE, we will add it.

And the other very popular codec does support 2K, and we plan on adding it just as soon as possible.

(I am sorry for the brief reply, I have limited time since I am traveling today.)


Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[nyvz]

Dan, thanks for being so responsive!

I suppose if DNxHD doesn't support 2k it certainly doesn't support 4k. I was afraid of that. I'll be very interested to see if you are able to bring support for the "other popular codec" (are you not allowed to say prores?) or even better some other currently less popular but more practical and flexible modern codecs that do support 2k/4k

 

[Kraut69]

OK ...Let's see what we be able to get and for how much:

1. "The Adventures of Odysseus" ( in August ) -->

Monitor- Recorder Odyssey7Q $2295
SSD 480GB - $1200 ( X 2 = $2400)
using with FS700 $1495
----------------------
$6190
and we DO NOT GET 4K RAW, only 2K RAW and 4K Uncompressed up to 30 fps ( not even 60fps )

==============
Promised Sony Update:

HXR-IFR5 interface unit $2000 ?
AXR-R5 RAW Recorder $5350
AXS-512S24 512Gb Memory Card $1800 X2=$3600
AXS-CR1 card reader $550
============================
Total:$9700 with 1 card or $11500 with 2 cards

..but we will have:

1. 4K 16 bit linear RAW at 24p/30p/60p, with 4 seconds of 120fps recording in 4K
2. 2K 16 bit linear RAW at 24p/30p/60p,120p, 180p, 240p for unlimited time
3. AVCHD simultaneous recording at 24p/30p/60p
------------------------
Blackmagic Production Camera 4K - $4000 ( in JULY )
( First camera with 6G-SDI output )

1. Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) 4K at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
2. CinemaDNG 4K RAW at 3840 x 2160 up to 30fps and 1920 x 1080 up to 60fps
3. Global shutter !!!
and ALL you have to buy for using BMPC is a STANDARD SSD-disks !!! - as many as you want ! ..
( I pre-order BMPC camera, so I'll have it in July )

( ..even Aaton Penelope Delta using STANDART SSD-drives in 4-SSD DeltaPack ... )
------------------------
All this remind me old story of so called "ZIP"-DRIVES .. 100 MB each ... and DVD disks 4GB each ... I don't use any of them in the last 10 years

...tomorrow more cameras and recorders will step into 6G-SDI and this "The Adventures of Odysseus" will be obsolete))

To the Sony package add in the cost of the hardware upgrade and shipping.

 

[NextWaveG]

Who will be shooting everything in 4K? I know I won't be. I'll live happily in S-Log2 HD recorded to 10bit. I want DNxHD in 1080p for 99% of my work. Out of the box, the 7Q does that with one of their SSDs. The plus is that I could rent the FS700 2K RAW or 4K Uncompressed for a shoot if and when I need it. Chances are, I wouldn't make it back in a year or two if I bought the $1500 codec pack. But the big factor over an Atomos or any other recorder is the fact that I CAN shoot 2K RAW or 4K for just an extra $75 a day. This means I can offer it to a client without having to purchase it myself.

 

[SergeSmArt]

To the Sony package add in the cost of the hardware upgrade and shipping.

We don't know yet the cost of the hardware upgrade, ( probably something between $300-$500, or maybe less.. ) ... and... - I don't need to ship my FS-700 to Sony ... I can to there on my bike :grin: .. if I will decide to get it...

 

[SergeSmArt]

But the big factor over an Atomos or any other recorder is the fact that I CAN shoot 2K RAW or 4K for just an extra $75 a day.

....This means I can offer it to a client without having to purchase it myself.

Get FS-700 update, ($... xxx? ) Odyssey 7Q ( $2295 ), couple of SSD's ( $2400 ) and Codec ( $1500 ) ..all of it .. - for just $75/day ? rogar-Shock(DBG):..are you sure?

If I pay myself for myFS-700 update, I will also have the option "to offer to client ( who want to record 4K RAW ) rent Sony recorder with Int. Unit and 2 X 512GB cards" from Adorama rental, "without having to purchase it myself..."

so what the difference?

 

[freiheit]

You are doing a an amazing job for us FS700 community freiheit. Much appreciated. My friend who has the MarkII just bought the FS700 after playing with my Fs700 for 2 months. He is so happy with the purchase.

@daomay,
you're quite welcome!

i'm not the pro shooter for Sony nor it's not the paid gig. i just wanna share my personal impression from this beta test of the firmware simply makes the footages of FS700 attractive!

i will post more sample very soon so please come back anytime

 

[Dan Keaton]

Get FS-700 update, ($... xxx? ) Odyssey 7Q ( $2295 ), couple of SSD's ( $2400 ) and Codec ( $1500 ) ..all of it .. - for just $75/day ? rogar-Shock(DBG):..are you sure?

If I pay myself for myFS-700 update, I will also have the option "to offer to client ( who want to record 4K RAW ) rent Sony recorder with Int. Unit and 2 X 512GB cards" from Adorama rental, "without having to purchase it myself..."

so what the difference?

Dear SergeSmArt,

The $75 (US Price), is for rental of the FS700 Recording Option only.

You must first have an Odyssey7Q and the necessary SSD or SSD's.

We offer the rental program of our recording options for many reasons.

Here is just one: If you own an Odyssey7Q and mainly need to record compressed, but you have a short shoot where you will need the FS700 Recording Option which adds 2K 240 fps continuous support and 4K full uncompressed support, then you can just rent it instead of purchasing it.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

 

[NextWaveG]

Dan,

I expect to get a 7Q to shoot S-Log HD 99% of the time. 2K RAW will be great if/when I have a project that requires it. 4K uncompressed though is not very useful to me. I'd very much rather have 4K compressed (either DNxHD or ProRes). I know you are still working things out with ProRes and right now there are no announcements for a DNxHD version of 4K. Do you think that is something you could add down the line?

Thanks.

 

[SergeSmArt]

Dear SergeSmArt,

....The $75 (US Price), is for rental of the FS700 Recording Option only.....

Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design

Dan! Why you reply to my post which is just my ironic reaction to NextWaveG post : "But the big factor over an Atomos or any other recorder is the fact that I CAN shoot 2K RAW or 4K for just an extra $75 a day." :cheesy:

I know - this is NOT "just extra $75 a day" .. you don't have to explan me it..