Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
The FS7 and FS5 have almost nothing in common, including the menu system. The FS7 is a much more sophisticated camera in every way, including the menu organization and functionality.
FS7: 4.3 update to record ISO in Cine EI --- BUT WHERE IN MENU!?!?!?!?!
- Thread starter Marshallarts
- Start date
The FS7 and FS5 have almost nothing in common, including the menu system. The FS7 is a much more sophisticated camera in every way, including the menu organization and functionality.
Wes.
Well-known member
Yeah the F5 and FS7 are almost identical if not identical in the menu, but the FS5 is worlds different and quite frustrating if you're coming from FS7 and F5 menus. I've been handed an fs5 on set and asked to set it up as a b camera only to be absolutely puzzled by how to change the white balance. I couldn't believe you had to change the gamma setting to change the white balance in S log - that made me feel like it was my first day on set. Google searches high and low to figure that one out
Though I think the Donny123 reference was actually to the F5 menu system...
My general feeling is that there should be an improved way to help the user with the various "gotcha's" of the menu system - something that I started feeling frustrated with in the F5 that I hadn't seen much of in either the F3 or in the PDW series menus -- the number of items that would be 'grayed out' and unavailable depending on selections made in other menus. My overall suggestion would be to have some sort of reference that appears next to any unavailable menu item that would indicate which other menu item (or feature) was making it unavailable. Just imagine if it added comments like "Unavail w/ HFR" in a memo line at the bottom of the menu screen! This kind of built-in help would also be great for reminding the user of other places the camera might be set incorrectly. Probably not a big deal for owner/operators who set up their cameras in advance of a shoot, but very useful for day players who shoot with 30 different cameras a year and are expected to be rolling 30 minutes after arriving on set.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
I think that is a great idea. Brilliant.
But I would also add that MORE menus need to be grayed out to make it clearer which settings are actually in effect at the moment. Sometimes this is the case, but not always. This kind of design inconsistency is worst of all and is big pet peeve of mine. I have complained to Sony about it at NAB many times. For example, if you choose "Normal" peaking then the two menus that control "Colored" peaking should become grayed out because they are no longer relevant. And vice versa. But that's not the way it works. Another example is that if I choose to only use one Zebra then the menus that control the other Zebra should be grayed out. There are many settings on the camera where choosing A will gray out all the menus associated with B, but not always. That needs to be addressed. And add your idea of pressing a button to discover why a menu is grayed out would be excellent. Of course, you'd also have to change the design so that the cursor could actually stop on a grayed-out menu instead of jumping over it.
I have an f5 not fs5.. but man I tell you this is a problem.. I write or say f5 .. and so many production people think I have an Fs5.. I was asked if my f5 had XLR inputs the other day !!..
cyvideo
Veteran
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Damn! I made that mistake . . . again. I blame my dyslexia. All those similar model numbers always get jumbled.
Marshallarts
Well-known member
The hardest part about coming to forums for mid-levels cameras like this are people like you who assume you have more experience than I. I do not have these issues with my Alexa. But I do on F5 and F55s. It’s a Sony thing. Everyone know that. Their menus are terrible. Have fun spending the rest of the weekend making yourself feel superior than you are.
JPNola
Veteran
Member since 2007 and you are just now encountering Doug? :grin:
cyvideo
Veteran
Really! There are Alexa users here so I guess you count yourself amongst that august group of those mid level Alexa users that do post here. That's good to know, I guess we should all listen to god's gift to camera operators. BTW. Numerous mid level Alexas for sale on eBay this week for about $7.5k. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence wouldn't make a fatuous (mid-level adjective carefully chosen you'll note!) remark like that. :thumbdown
Chris Young
haha no worries ..also dyslexic.. had to copy your text as I still cant actually spell that word.. but really it is a problem for f5 owners these days .. just this year I've had this come up quite a few times .. younger production people have simply not heard of the f5 but they all know the fs5.. !
Well does it?
Chris Young
Im not sure .. what is an XLR plug.. there is a vastly over paid guy ,who mostly is sitting down eating donuts who fiddles around with that side of the camera
As near as I can tell from my experts (who seem to have switched from donuts to newspaper reading to avoid knee replacement) it's a feature that works easily on 'mid-range' cameras but which may require a certain amount of cursing and phone calls to tech support to set up properly on high end cameras (the ones with the easy camera menus they can't decipher.)
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Please, you're the one who started this thread with a simple problem and has exposed their ignorance with every post. Don't ask for help if you don't want it and can't be bothered to open the operation manual and read. Like it or not, it is clear from your own posts that I DO KNOW more about Sony cameras than you. Don't blame the camera or pretend "everyone" knows the camera is at fault.
Marshallarts
Well-known member
No need for you to get into a tissy. I was responding to Doug alone for his condescending reply. I was the one coming here for help and would have no reason to be upset with you, who has been helpful. I understand forums are place where people can become obnoxious, but I keep my nasty remarks reserved only to defend myself.
Chris, no need to defend others for being obnoxious. You have been helpful, unlike Sony's manual.
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cyvideo
Veteran
Sorry but I did find your answer somewhat condescending regardless. We all have a viewpoint and your response to Doug's response was as much as a 'tissy' as you put it as mine. Your remarks encompassed more than Doug's comments your general tone was sweeping and aimed at all the "mid level" camera users on this forum which I felt unnecessary especially as you say you were were looking for help. Hardly engenders anyone to be willing to offer you help. So be it.
Chris Young
Chris Young
Marshallarts
Well-known member
My apologies. If I'm to criticize mid-level camera users I am certainly one. In fact most of my work is with these cameras. Producers claim this is because of budgetary restraints, but judging by their lack of planning on the day of production it's quite clear they don't know what they want. And I do believe you can achieve high-end results with a mid-level camera IF they take the time to approach it correctly.
I joined this forum in 2007 but have been filming long before then. Yes, even on film. I'm just as sick of seeing condescending remarks as anyone else. No one knows the experience level of each other here. That's why I'm always polite until I get pushed by a bully who thinks they know more.
Particularly this past decade I feel Sony's menus have been an issue and this is a VERY COMMON BELIEF. Christ, remember when the F5 first came out?! I was in a conference YESTERDAY where the Sony Rep himself joked about the Sony's menus in front of an audience. To be called out "as not knowing how my camera works" was ridiculous. I've owned many Sonys, along with Panasonics, Canons, and Arris. When Doug takes an opportunity to discredit me and defend Sony, it's obvious he's just trying to be antagonizing. He clearly cared more about being a dick than understanding my actual concern. Of course I know the User Menu, but why the hell would a submenu be different there then anywhere else?
You guys have resolved my issue so this is thread can end. But this specific example is a great example of another Sony menu problem. They allow you to place a submenu item in the user menu, but for some dumb reason it doesn't contain all the options available in another menu. This is either an error, or just a dumb decision. Anyone who stands behind it has drinking too much of the Sony cool-aid.
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Thanks for proving my point. You obviously don't know how the User Menu works even though you think you do or else you'd never make such a statement. Go read the manual and learn how User Menus work and discover their power. I'll leave it there instead of stooping to name calling and pointing fingers, making personal attacks, and talking about how many years I've been "filming".
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JPNola
Veteran
Every camera menu seems “stupid” at times before you learn it, especially if coming from another make of camera. When I go back to a Windows-based computer it seems “stupid” and poorly thought out to me now that I am used to Macs.
It isn’t as if Canons are not without quirks and less than optimal menu designs. As far as it being “common belief” that Sony menu design is poor, I suspect that much of that is a result of so many coming up on 5D’s and C300’s as their first camera whereas for those of us working in the betacam days Sony was our first experience. For the first 15 years of my career I used Sony cameras 80% of the time and never touched a Canon video camera at all.
When I shoot on a RED there are things that seem “stupid” such as no longer being able to use focus-mag once you start rolling.
I’ll say it again, even if controversial, but Sony never had a “fan-boy” following as developed with Canon via the 5D and then C300. In part because it was rarely “boys” using pro Sony cameras but men- the pro cameras were so expensive that only adults could afford them. 16 yr olds were not buying Sony betacams. And the Sony betacams were not purchased as toys for personal use. They were bought as tools, by professionals only. Never bought by hobbyists. Sony only really began to have a hobbyist / fanboy following with the A7 because it was priced to where hobbyists, and yes-teenage boys, could afford it.
I’ll shut up now and yes, this thread is probably best dying out now. The OP’s issue was resolved and determined to be operator error.
It isn’t as if Canons are not without quirks and less than optimal menu designs. As far as it being “common belief” that Sony menu design is poor, I suspect that much of that is a result of so many coming up on 5D’s and C300’s as their first camera whereas for those of us working in the betacam days Sony was our first experience. For the first 15 years of my career I used Sony cameras 80% of the time and never touched a Canon video camera at all.
When I shoot on a RED there are things that seem “stupid” such as no longer being able to use focus-mag once you start rolling.
I’ll say it again, even if controversial, but Sony never had a “fan-boy” following as developed with Canon via the 5D and then C300. In part because it was rarely “boys” using pro Sony cameras but men- the pro cameras were so expensive that only adults could afford them. 16 yr olds were not buying Sony betacams. And the Sony betacams were not purchased as toys for personal use. They were bought as tools, by professionals only. Never bought by hobbyists. Sony only really began to have a hobbyist / fanboy following with the A7 because it was priced to where hobbyists, and yes-teenage boys, could afford it.
I’ll shut up now and yes, this thread is probably best dying out now. The OP’s issue was resolved and determined to be operator error.
Marshallarts
Well-known member
Apologies in advance for posting one more time. I figured all this arguing regarding the usefulness of missing Sub-Items was worth going straight to Sony's Advanced Support Team.
It sounds like some here don't seem to mind it, even suggesting I'm just not familiar enough with the menu. (despite having owned several Sonys). I argue they aren't familiar with it's issues, missing Sub-items being just one of them. Helpful Doug lectures me to "read the manual" which if he did himself, he would understand that there is no mention of or explanation for why certain sub-items are not available there.... because that was the issue to begin with (thanks for nothing).
Here's my conversation with Sony along with their reply:
Here is their reply:
Take that as you will.
It sounds like some here don't seem to mind it, even suggesting I'm just not familiar enough with the menu. (despite having owned several Sonys). I argue they aren't familiar with it's issues, missing Sub-items being just one of them. Helpful Doug lectures me to "read the manual" which if he did himself, he would understand that there is no mention of or explanation for why certain sub-items are not available there.... because that was the issue to begin with (thanks for nothing).
Here's my conversation with Sony along with their reply:
Could you please help me understand this reasoning:
Is there a reason why a subitem in the menu would not show up if you add it to the user menu?
For example: why would Rec/Out EI be available in Base Settings under the system menu, but not under Base Settings in the User Menu?
Is this an oversight, a mistake that may be fixed in a firmware update, or is there another reason for this? I would like to know what other sub-items I may need to be aware are also not present in the User Menu. Is there a good reason for this? I feel it adds to confusion.
Is there a reason why a subitem in the menu would not show up if you add it to the user menu?
For example: why would Rec/Out EI be available in Base Settings under the system menu, but not under Base Settings in the User Menu?
Is this an oversight, a mistake that may be fixed in a firmware update, or is there another reason for this? I would like to know what other sub-items I may need to be aware are also not present in the User Menu. Is there a good reason for this? I feel it adds to confusion.
Here is their reply:
I really can’t. These are just decisions the design team came up with.
Trung
Sony Support
Trung
Sony Support
Take that as you will.