1st Feature Camera Choice

F

Focal 7

Member
I have owned 4 different video cameras going back to 1983, all Sonys. I am now attempting to start my first feature. Armed with friends, a modest budget, and a fine script, I landed at this website and, after reading here for a few weeks was convinced I wanted to shoot on a DVX 100b.
The more I read, however, the more indecisive I become. I have a PC, but nothing really to edit with. My budget for equipment is 5K. I am wondering if I should scale back on camera choice and spend more on editing.
First, a little about the movie, and then maybe I could get some guidance.
Modern day horror (what else, right?) Primarily outdoor wooded locations, both day and night time. Also in abandoned buildings with natural light streaming in both day and night. Minimal panning.
Wondering if I should stick with the DVX ( I have heard it's not as good in low light as some) or cut back to a Canon HV30 and maybe upgrade to a Mac Pro and FCP for editing. I know the whole HD / SD thing enters the picture. I also like the Canon XL1 and there seem to be plenty of used ones floating around out there.
Any thoughts on what might work best for my application? Then there's always Red Scarlet.........Never mind, I can't wait. Oh I'm so confused!!! Thanks for any help.
 
The ultimate option would be waiting for the Scarlet.

I'd shoot a feature on HVX...but you'd have to rent it. You'll get a much better image out of it. There are rental companies that will rent a bundle of equipment with it. $1500 a week is what I saw for a decently decked out HVX.

As far as editing goes, to take the cheap way out, buy a refurbished Mac Pro for $1999, load up Final Cut, put some ram in, hard drives, and that's a loaded setup for post-production.

If you can't afford a new Mac, then upgrade your PC to get it ready for HD editing, then get Vegas/Premiere/Avid/Whatever editing tool.
 
So 5k is total for equipment, including new computer/editing software if needed? Do you already have a good monitor? We recently shot a feature with an XH-A1 and though I haven't been able to see the rough cut yet, I hear its holding up really well. I agree with BMFM for editing. Mac Pro for $1999, a gig or two more of RAM and you're good to go.

You also have to take lighting and sound into consideration, so cost IS going up. You can probably get away with a decent shotgun, but audio isn't exactly my specialty so it'd be best to get another opinion. Maybe renting a lighting kit or finding a crew member with lights? I strongly believe you can shoot it on the HV30 w/ or w/o an adapter, if you have the right setup (lights and audio).

Either rent a camera and all gear, other than the editing machine and you should make budget, unless you're shooting schedule is really spread out. I wouldn't shoot it on an XL1s or a DVX at this point. Soon this thread is going to be filled with "it doesn't matter what you shoot on, content is king", but let's be serious. If you're putting this much effort into something, at least get the resolution. It's not as if post-production and proper setups can't make the image look filmic anyway.

My thoughts,

Kegan
 
I have seen features made with DVX100 like November and Iraq In Fragments, but I don't know of features made with other cameras in the price range, or even HVX. Could someone post a few titles?
 
I like the DVX100. I just got my hands on one for a week and have been playing around with it none stop. I own an HV20 w/ a 35mm adapter but have a hard time deciding which camera is better.
 
Thanks guys for the input. Let me make some additions. With my partners included we have pro audio and lighting equip. covered, as well as FCP. I need nothing there. The shooting schedule is approx. 5 weeks, so I would prefer to buy rather than rent. Where can you buy a refurbished Mac? Contact info? I was planning on spending 3K on a new Mac, so at under that does it still leave room for camera purchase. If I have to rob from my wardrobe budget (it is sizeable) and throw more toward the camera, I will. Thanks Kegan for the last few sentences. I appreciate any and all responses!
 
Hey,

I am also shooting a feature and have decided to shoot with the dvx100b, because ultimately it's the story on the screen not the gear your shooting with. Red giant also just introduced a new instant hd which is much much much better then instant hd basic. So im going to go ahead and say scaling the dvx footage up 50 to 720p might yield some decent results. That is of course all speculation. If I could I would shoot with an HVX but if I could I would shoot with a genesis. The dvx will be more then enough camera for the job.
 
Focal 7 said:
Where can you buy a refurbished Mac? Contact info? I was planning on spending 3K on a new Mac, so at under that does it still leave room for camera purchase.
Click to expand...


Go to www.apple.com

Go to the store, then look for a link for "Refurbished Macs". There should be a Quad 2.66 Mac Pro for $1999. It's on the bottom left of the screen.

Here's a link to it, but it may expire..

http://store.apple.com/us/product/FA356LL/A

4 gigs of ram can be had for $150 from OWC, then a couple of 500 gig drives cost $80 a piece. Also a decent monitor would help (at least 20 inches).
 
If you're not planning on doing anything fancy in post, an i-mac is perfectly capable of running FCP. It is also a lot cheaper than a mac pro.
 
It is, but a refurbished Mac Pro is about the same price as a decent level iMac. If you have a monitor, why not go with the Mac Pro? Spend around $2500 on a decent level refurb Mac pro, put the rest towards a camcorder. I'd seriously consider the XH-A1 if you haven't already thought about it. There's a couple used ones popping up in the marketplace for decent rates, as the HPX170 and HMC150 are coming out this fall.

Armed with an XH-A1, pro audio and lighting, a Mac Pro w/ editing software...you'll be golden. You get the professional features similar if not superior to the DVX, you get HD resolution and you're still able to shoot at 24 frames a second.

Just something to consider, if you haven't already.

-Kegan
 
If you have a PC, why not try Adobe's Premiere? It's easy and pretty much instinctive to use and doesn't require a whole lot of processing power unless you're going to HD. I have tried both Premiere and Final Cut Pro and I personally prefer Premiere. To be honest, I detest Macs and find FCP too difficult and complicated to use for what I want to do.
 
The movie Cloverfield was shot with a Viper Cam, Cine-Alta, 2 HVX200s, and a HDC-SD5. Michael Bonivillian, the DP for Cloverfield, said, "are almost high-def, 4:2:2, using the P2 cards," about the HVX200. The reason I bring this up is because the quality must have been good enough in 720p24N to blow up to 35mm for theater release.

Now, Panasonic makes great cameras, don't get me wrong, and everybody has their opinion. I would look into a JVC GY-HD110U or HD200. Yes, they are HDV, but because they are 720p and not 1080i, the lower bitrate will not effect the image quality. I've seen some footage and it looks really, very suprisingly, not like any HDV or AVC-HD footage I've seen. In a comparison, I've seen that the GY-HD110U is less noisy than the HVX200 in a side by side comparison. It's worth taking a look at because you will have to factor in the rental of P2 cards for the HVX200.
 
I appreciate all the advice on cameras so far. HVX 200 along with P2 cards put me over budget if I want to go Mac Pro & FCP. My PC doesn't have enough horsepower, so I really feel the need to upgrade. I am unfamiliar with the JVC units (I'll have to do some studying there). The Canon XH-A1 sounds tempting, but I would probably have to go used. One adviser says the HV-30 will work. It doesn't sound like the DVX 100b is the best way to go anymore. I'm gaining, but the choice is still not clear. Thanks for your patience!
 
HV-30 would really hurt the production value...I would take the A1 used over the DVX and HV30 if I had the choice.

But again I think I'd rent the HVX if I was doing a feature. There are different advantages to buying/renting.
 
seriously a dvx100b can get the job done. Take a look at this film:
http://www.wim-wenders.com/movies/movies_spec/landofplenty/land-of-plenty.htm

Land of plenty was blown up to 35mm and from what I have read looked amazing. Like I said before, Red giant has instant hd advanced which could up you to 720p very easily. I have owned the xh-a1 and I have found it to need quite the computer to be able to edit the footage, it seems that the interframe codecs really work your computer. Find a used dvx100B or even A and shoot your film. Ultimately it's going to be the story that counts the most.

Creativity solves all problems.


my 2 cents.

As well as Head Trauma as well as iraq in fragments. Yes
 
Yes, of course everyone is aware that content is king but if you can get a used XH-A1 for the price of a DVX, why not? He's already upgrading his computer, whether it be to stay on PC or go towards Mac..so it should be powerful enough to edit HDV footage. My MBP does it decently.

I owned a DVX100b for 3 years and it served me great, but we're now in a time where we're leading more now toward HD. Everyone knows that the DVX produces great images, has shot award winning films. No need to reiterate that, when HD is becoming more of a standard. Buying SD when you don't have a camera to shoot a feature is rather strange when you can get HD with the budget you have. It's like saying a 1995 Mazda RX-7 is fast...it still is, but there are much faster/more customizable cars now.

Instant HD seems like a good piece of software, but if you can shoot HD in cam, why go through the hassle of doing MORE in post than you have to?

Noel Evans is selling a Canon XH-A1 in the marketplace right now for around $2500.

Creativity can solve a lot of problems, but if you can avoid those problems by spending a little more and remaining within your budget, why not do so?

-Kegan
 
I agree.. shooting HD in camera is easier and takes less time than Instant HD would. Also, Instant HD would require you to have to FCP projects because FCP doesn't allow effects or plug-ins to alter the footage or timeline resolution. However, I think that you would be very disappointed with the XH-A1 footage. 1080i in HDV format is really bullsh*t. I really think that you would have a lot less noise from another, more professional format....1080i HDV was not meant for professionals.

What JVC did was revolutionary: and 720p in HDV, specifically the GY-HD100, was used to shoot the movie Gabriel which was blown up to 35mm for world-wide release. Granted, it's not as good as DVCPRO HD Varicam footage would look, but it would be much more cinematic than 1080i HDV is. Also, just for the record:

Panasonic and JVC cameras produce true progressive scan footage while Canon and Sony use other methods to produce faux progressive footage. Take that into consideration when you choose your camera, especially if you're distributing on film or other progressive scan formats.

Here is a webpage that has samples of the JVC GY-HD100 footage w/ a Mini35 adaptor:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/jvcprohd/hd100mini35test5.php

Good Luck.
 
JCal11379 said:
I However, I think that you would be very disappointed with the XH-A1 footage. 1080i in HDV format is really bullsh*t. I really think that you would have a lot less noise from another, more professional format....1080i HDV was not meant for professionals.

What JVC did was revolutionary: and 720p in HDV, specifically the GY-HD100, was used to shoot the movie Gabriel which was blown up to 35mm for world-wide release. Granted, it's not as good as DVCPRO HD Varicam footage would look, but it would be much more cinematic than 1080i HDV is. Also, just for the record:

Panasonic and JVC cameras produce true progressive scan footage while Canon and Sony use other methods to produce faux progressive footage. Take that into consideration when you choose your camera, especially if you're distributing on film or other progressive scan formats.

Here is a webpage that has samples of the JVC GY-HD100 footage w/ a Mini35 adaptor:

http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/jvcprohd/hd100mini35test5.php

Good Luck.
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Im very sorry to interject here, but seriously this screams of someone who has never used a Canon A1 and 24f/25f for that matter. Seriously, if you dont know, or have the real world experience, please dont comment.
 
I own an hv20 with a 35mm adapter. The images look fantastic with enough light. I'm shooting a feature right now with a lot of nighttime scenes, and after testing in low-light, decided to rent an xha1 from a friend instead of using my hv20. It's also much quicker to use, since the manual controls are easier to access and change. And you can run XLR mics directly into the camera.

I'd say buy or rent an xha1 since they're so cheap right now. Buy some new RAM and hard drives for your computer and edit with Sony Vegas. You can get it for $140 at b&h right now. Put the rest of the budget towards crew that knows and owns lighting and audio gear.
 
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