C300: 1/48 vs 1/50

New_Zealand

New_Zealand

Veteran
I have always shot 1/50 - HVX200, 5Dmkiii, NX1 but I have noticed that 1/48 seems to be what others are saying to use on the C300MkI? Also I have always shot 24 but on the C300 others say shoot 23.98.

Any feedback or thoughts on this? Thanks
 
If you're following the 180° shutter rule, 1/48 @ 24p is the perfect calculation, but many cameras don't have that option, so people use 1/50 (the closest they can get).

Same with framerates...many cameras don't have a 24p option, so people use 23.98p. And even though it might say 24p in the menu of some cameras, it's really 23.98p.

In both cases, no one in the world would notice a visual difference and the only time you would choose 23.98p vs 24p is for a technical reason.
 
The only real reason to shoot true 24P in the US is if you're doing a "film-out". For almost every other scenario, you should shoot 23.98. In 15 or so years of shooting 24P HD(and 4K/UHD), I have never shot true 24P. Always 23.98. F900, tape VariCam, P2 VariCam, C300, C300 II, F55, Amira... All 23.98P. Of course, always consult with your client, though.
 
Relax. The 180 degree shutter rule is a rule of thumb. Historically 24fps film cameras actually bound by this rule shot closer to 1/50th anyway. Nowadays Hollywood often is happy to shoot 24fps film at 1/40th. Suggest do some tests at 1/25th - you might like it.
 
If you shoot at 1/25 shutter I have $10 that says you’ll be unhappy with the results. Why? Reduced temporal resolution. If you are shooting an interview/talking head while on a tripod, you might be ok at 1/25, just barely. Once there is motion in the frame, camera moving, subject moving, environment moving , maybe all three, temporal resolution will turn to sh*t, leaving you with reduced resolution, image softness any time there is movement of any sort, by the 3 things I mentioned with the addition of focal length changes if using a zoom.
Rather than take my word for it, shoot a quick test. Shoot the same scene, if you have children, have one ride a bike in set a shot with your camera have them ride through frame and do takes with. 1/25 shutter, 1/50 or 1/48 shutter and 1/100 shutter. Then go review your footage on a decent sized screen and you should see a definite qualitative difference in the images. The shot at 1/25 will have more motion blur, and a softer smeary quality than the other 2 shots at the higher shutter speeds.
I see that you are posting from NZ. Onther shutter speed consideration is how the shutter speed and frame rate interacts with artificial lighting. If you are shooting 23.98 I’d use 1/50 shutter speed because your power system frequency is 50hz. If you shoot at 1/48 you may get subtle phasing in exposure levels because the power line frequency divided by the shutter speed is not and integer.
 
bill totolo said:
I often shoot 23.976 at 1/60th to avoid flicker and scan lines under house lighting or un-prepped HMI's.
Click to expand...

This ^^^^^^^

In 60Hz territories, any discharge lamps will have very slow roll bars being recorded in your image at 1/48th, even my Kinos. You really only see it when you scan FF but it's there. 1/60th works fine, really doesn't look very different from 1/48th shutter. When I shoot overseas, I use a 1/50th shutter, same results when shooting 23.976 fps.
 
If you are setting your shutter by degrees in the menu instead of speed, so 180 degree not 1/48 for 23.98, then your setting should be 172.8 degrees in 60hz locations instead of 180. With the Mk2 having the shutter speed set to degrees keeps the shutter -frame rate relationship constant when changing frame rates. If you have shutter set to speed, i.e. 1/48, you’ll also need to be mindful of the shutter- frame rate relationship when changing frame rates for off speed shooting, which can get to be a stumbling block when shooting in a pressurized situation.
I’ll add to the above that setting the camera to shutter angle in degrees maintains the frame rate shutter angle relationship across frame rate changes in the C300 mk2 world. It was in no way a blanket statement applicable to all cameras...
 
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Here's a fun little fact, when shooting on video cameras setting your shutter to "shutter angle" is only a close approximation wheres setting it to "shutter speed" is precise.
So you're more likely to get flicker shooting at 180º shutter than at 1/50.
 
Mark Smith said:
If you are setting your shutter by degrees in the menu instead of speed, so 180 degree not 1/48 for 23.98, then your setting should be 172.8 degrees in 60hz locations instead of 180. With the Mk2 having the shutter speed set to degrees keeps the shutter -frame rate relationship constant when changing frame rates. If you have shutter set to speed, i.e. 1/48, you’ll also need to be mindful of the shutter- frame rate relationship when changing frame rates for off speed shooting, which can get to be a stumbling block when shooting in a pressurized situation.
Click to expand...

Good point. My C200 has made me lazy, set it to 180 degrees, forget about it in most situations, unless manually switching it up to 1/60th.
 
bill totolo said:
Here's a fun little fact, when shooting on video cameras setting your shutter to "shutter angle" is only a close approximation wheres setting it to "shutter speed" is precise.
So you're more likely to get flicker shooting at 180º shutter than at 1/50.
Click to expand...

Did not know that, thanks for the educatiom Bill.
 
"Here's a fun little fact, when shooting on video cameras setting your shutter to "shutter angle" is only a close approximation"
Ok, now I have to ask- what is the source of your info?
Video cameras make the statement sound like a generalisation of sorts. Shutter angles can be mathematically transposed into fractions of a second and the reverse so why is one more precise than the other?
 
Mark Smith said:
If you shoot at 1/25 shutter I have $10 that says you’ll be unhappy with the results.
Click to expand...
There's two schools. One says keep your shutter at 180 degrees. Others, (who maybe understand the origins of this practice) says 180 degrees is an approximation applicable in many cases. At other times will vary their shutter speed to get the results they want. Those people typically probably won't use 360 degrees to shoot a kid on a bicycle handheld in bright daylight, but if they want a blurry shaky image, they know enough to be able to choose. Those same people may prefer a 360 degree shutter for a static tripod shot of a dimly lit wedding reception. It's just that shutter speed is something you can vary to get the results you want, but you need the knowledge and experience to be able to.
 
Shutter angle/speed should be the same exact thing on paper...then it's up to the piece of hardware to do the work.

Us humans basically trust the equipment.

Who's not to say that a C200 at 180° is really - technically - only producing a 179.8 degree shutter angle. Or an EVA1 at 1/60 is really providing us 1/59.4 shutter speed.
(Not saying that's happening.)

I don't know what's happening inside the cameras, but on paper, a 180 degree shutter angle shooting at 24.00 frames per second is a 1/48 shutter speed.
 
If you are scraping for the last bit of exposure, yes you can manipulate shutter speed or shutter angle as expressed in degrees, which are 2 different ways of expressing the same thing. So switching from 180deg shutter to 360 get you a stop, same as going from 1/48 to 1/24th, and that's a photographic and 'creative' choice to a degree. There are situations where you can get away or may want to use 360 deg or 1/24 shutter. There are rules and there are reasons to break the rules. My original point is that as soon as camera and or subject, focal are in motion 360 deg shutter- 1/24th shutter speed are going to suck in terms of temporal resolution, so to use them as 'normal' shooting setting would be an error.
 
So let me ask this, would this ASC person be willing to share how they determined that shutter speed was more accurate than shutter angle without revealing their name? I’d love to be able to test it myself if possible.
 
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