C200: $1,000 Price Drop.....C500MKII coming soon?

Definitely a perplexing situation for documentary, commercial, corporate, and event filming. For narrative the consensus seems to be you have to have an Arri, Red, or Venice. Almost all of which are way out of the price range of this discussion, buying new. I don't see myself making any money in the narrative market in the foreseeable future frankly anyway. The large payouts for me come from documentary, event, and corporate work. I was set on getting the C500 II as i'm ready to move into that price point, but now I'm rethinking the whole endeavor.

I believe the cameras that are competitive in this particular segment are as follows:

Sony FX9, Canon C500 II, Red Dragon X, URSA Mini Pro G2

The Red Dragon X I think is a stretch due to the price and lack of internal audio, so it's not really a solo camera unless you strap on some odd accessories. I also didn't include z-cam as they are still in their infancy and I don't trust them right now.
I didn't put the Amira on here because it's over $30k for a new one. I can't justify $15K for a used camera, and it doesn't shoot 4K which I also can't justify going backwards in resolution for.

A complete built out camera ready to shoot, matched with the needed accessories are as follows:

Sony FX9: $12,500
Canon C500 II: $19,000
Red Dragon X: $23,000
URSA G2: $10,000

That includes power, 1TB of media, and basic things like a handle, monitor, evf to match them with each other.
The only one that is at a disadvantage usage wise here is the Red Dragon, which does not have internal ND, and does not have internal audio.

I think the URSA G2 & FX9 are the best bang for the buck. The URSA specifically shoots above 4K and produces a great image.
I'm a Sony FS5 user currently, and I've hated almost everything about it since I got it. The color, the menus, the ergonomics, it's not fun to use. It gets the job done and that's it.
I used to have a C100 and loved everything about it, so that's why i'm excited about the C500 II. I'm also excited about having usable auto-focus.

The Red Dragon looks interesting, and isn't much more than the C500 II, but in order to put it into the same segment, i'd have to rig it up with all kinds of weird addons to get basic audio inputs and ND. I don't want to use a matte box, I don't want to run external audio, I just want the camera to work.

For low light, it would have to be the C500, the others don't come close.
For high frame rate, the Red and the URSA G2 win.
For color, motion, and cinematic look, the Red wins, with I believe the Canon coming in second.

Not sure what the answer really is at this point.

View attachment 137575

For me, the REDs of any kind are out, they function much better as a crew served camera on narrative production, commercials and music videos. Love the images, hate the ergos, their stupid skulls, etc. marketing image and in my mind, reliability is questionable.
Last time I shot with an Epic Dragon last year, it quit working as we were prepping to shoot. Luckily RED drove us over a replacement but if I hadn't been 40 minutes from their HQ in Hollywood, it would have been a disaster.

If I was doing more corporate/broadcast/event stuff, I would get the Sony, simply because of marketing. It's the FS7 successor and a lot of people have made a lot of money just by owning an FS7 over the past 2-3 years, if you have those kinds of clients.
S-Cinetone is a great improvement and SOOC footage seems to look actually usable.

I just spent a month shooting with the BMD UMP G2. It's a very nice camera. Great slow motion capability, best menus in the business, images are very nice. But the lack of waveform and weird XLR location as well as trying to sell OUR clients on shooting BMD,
which is a name they don't know, would be a tough battle. For my own shoots, I like it. For clients, I think it would be challenging from a business proposition.

That leaves me with the C500 MKII. I think it will be quite a winner for Canon, I wish it was a few thousand cheaper but it is what it is. IMHO and probably Chris', CRL on the C200 is so good, really gets at least in the neighborhood of the Arri look with good lighting and post.
Thw C500 MKII is obviously a much better, more fully featured and versatile camera but as I have lamented, few of our clients would pay any more day rate for it that they will pay for our paid off C200. Which makes it a no go, for me, at least this year. If I need the write off
next year, possibly but would it make me more money? No. So probably not, for me, with where I am, at this time. For you, I think the delineation is, how does S-Cinetone looks to you? Are you willing to keep living with Sony's notoriously bad menu navigation. Does RAW matter
to you at all? Your clients? What lenses are you deep in, if any? For the AF to work optimally on the FX-9, from what I have been hearing, essentially you are stuck with Sony's lenses, which for me, are ho hum, not cheap. I have all Canon glass so the C500 MKII would be better
for my for that reason but for you? I don't know.

Really, all four cameras, in my mind, appeal to pretty radically different users, shooting different things with different client bases.

Tough choice. Assuming you are a pro and this is your living, choose wisely. If you are a wealthy hobbyist, buy whatever you want.
 
New Sigma 24-70 F2.8 works well with the Sony A7 line. I know some people insinuated this wouldn't be the case with FX-9 but Phil Bloom tried Zeiss 50mm Planar during those early pressers in the UK and it worked fine also. Which means that so should Zeiss Batis, Tamron and even some Rokinon primes.

Obviously, Canon has some third party glass too.

As to UMP, that's just it's perceived in the industry.
 
Definitely a perplexing situation for documentary, commercial, corporate, and event filming. For narrative the consensus seems to be you have to have an Arri, Red, or Venice. Almost all of which are way out of the price range of this discussion, buying new. I don't see myself making any money in the narrative market in the foreseeable future frankly anyway. The large payouts for me come from documentary, event, and corporate work. I was set on getting the C500 II as i'm ready to move into that price point, but now I'm rethinking the whole endeavor.

I believe the cameras that are competitive in this particular segment are as follows:

Sony FX9, Canon C500 II, Red Dragon X, URSA Mini Pro G2

The Red Dragon X I think is a stretch due to the price and lack of internal audio, so it's not really a solo camera unless you strap on some odd accessories. I also didn't include z-cam as they are still in their infancy and I don't trust them right now.
I didn't put the Amira on here because it's over $30k for a new one. I can't justify $15K for a used camera, and it doesn't shoot 4K which I also can't justify going backwards in resolution for.

A complete built out camera ready to shoot, matched with the needed accessories are as follows:

Sony FX9: $12,500
Canon C500 II: $19,000
Red Dragon X: $23,000
URSA G2: $10,000

That includes power, 1TB of media, and basic things like a handle, monitor, evf to match them with each other.
The only one that is at a disadvantage usage wise here is the Red Dragon, which does not have internal ND, and does not have internal audio.

I think the URSA G2 & FX9 are the best bang for the buck. The URSA specifically shoots above 4K and produces a great image.
I'm a Sony FS5 user currently, and I've hated almost everything about it since I got it. The color, the menus, the ergonomics, it's not fun to use. It gets the job done and that's it.
I used to have a C100 and loved everything about it, so that's why i'm excited about the C500 II. I'm also excited about having usable auto-focus.

The Red Dragon looks interesting, and isn't much more than the C500 II, but in order to put it into the same segment, i'd have to rig it up with all kinds of weird addons to get basic audio inputs and ND. I don't want to use a matte box, I don't want to run external audio, I just want the camera to work.

For low light, it would have to be the C500, the others don't come close.
For high frame rate, the Red and the URSA G2 win.
For color, motion, and cinematic look, the Red wins, with I believe the Canon coming in second.

Not sure what the answer really is at this point.

View attachment 137575
You forgot Varicam LT which retails about $10K with the current promotion.
 
Some interesting tidbits from Canon in this C500MKII presentation they did recently:


You going to spring for one Chris? Sounds like you are leaning that way. The recent CVP video (I think it was CVP but it might have Pro AV, one of the UK retailers), to me, the AF system on the FX-9 behaved better than the C500 MKII, which is really impressive. AF is huge for me, I use it on about 70% of our shoots.
 
puredrifting said:
You going to spring for one Chris? Sounds like you are leaning that way. The recent CVP video (I think it was CVP but it might have Pro AV, one of the UK retailers), to me, the AF system on the FX-9 behaved better than the C500 MKII, which is really impressive. AF is huge for me, I use it on about 70% of our shoots.

Leaning that way, but could also see myself taking a hard left turn out of the Canon ecosystem entirely. I'm planning on using downtime over the holidays to really look at where my business is at, where I want to go, and then deciding what gear decisions would best support that choice. For where my business is currently at, staying within Canon and adding the C500MKII as my workhorse for the next 2-5yrs seems like a no-brainer, but I'll admit I'm starting to get bored with the idea of doing more of the same.
 
Leaning that way, but could also see myself taking a hard left turn out of the Canon ecosystem entirely. I'm planning on using downtime over the holidays to really look at where my business is at, where I want to go, and then deciding what gear decisions would best support that choice. For where my business is currently at, staying within Canon and adding the C500MKII as my workhorse for the next 2-5yrs seems like a no-brainer, but I'll admit I'm starting to get bored with the idea of doing more of the same.

Alexa mini LF?
 
Alexa mini LF?

Highly unlikely. Too rich for my blood as I'm not in the commercial world. Alexa Classic would probably the way I'd go if I were to wade into the Arri ecosystem, but that would have to be a very well thought out, intentional decision for sure.
 
Highly unlikely. Too rich for my blood as I'm not in the commercial world. Alexa Classic would probably the way I'd go if I were to wade into the Arri ecosystem, but that would have to be a very well thought out, intentional decision for sure.

Hah yes same here, although you never know. Are you trying to get into the commercial world?

I think an older alexa would be great for pure narrative projects but it's a pretty tough sell vs. the small footprint of the c-series cameras, along with stills lenses and smaller support.
 
Highly unlikely. Too rich for my blood as I'm not in the commercial world. Alexa Classic would probably the way I'd go if I were to wade into the Arri ecosystem, but that would have to be a very well thought out, intentional decision for sure.

It sounds like you can wait it out a little. C500 MKII will run around $20,000 with the required accessories. For that price, you can get quite a few Alexas. The Potato Jet YouTuber bought the cheapest Classic he could find in LA for $6,000 and I saw SXT's going in the mid-$30's.

On the other hand, 500 MKII could become a workhorse for your niche of the video market. It'd wait until more footage comes out. It won't be ARRI but it might be good enough.
 
It sounds like you can wait it out a little. C500 MKII will run around $20,000 with the required accessories. For that price, you can get quite a few Alexas. The Potato Jet YouTuber bought the cheapest Classic he could find in LA for $6,000 and I saw SXT's going in the mid-$30's.

On the other hand, 500 MKII could become a workhorse for your niche of the video market. It'd wait until more footage comes out. It won't be ARRI but it might be good enough.

To get an accurate production price we need to view the camera as part of a total system, meaning you also need to factor in support, unless that's a completely external hire e.g. grip department but it Chris's case he's most often an owner/operator. If you keep the c-series cameras small (and have matching smaller support equipment) then with an alexa the Easyrig minimax becomes a cinema/vario model, 75mm fluid head needs a 100mm/150mm set up, perhaps a more expensive steadicam operator day rate because a larger model is needed.

Though going with your idea to buy used, I'm sure you could find some great deals on all of these support items too.

Despite probably an inferior image the C500 ii is probably an easier sell to most 2019 resolution-aware, size conscious, AF-intrigued producers in the corporate/documentary space. Also, if all you wanted to do was make "films", you'd buy an f35 and cinesaddle then call it a day.
 
With LF replacing the s35 units on many pro shoots, there ought to be more and more older Alexas available on the used market but it's really not a solo op machine.
 
I'm so hopelessly in love with the Arri images, they really look better than anything else on the market to me. That said, buying into the Arri world is just a whole different ballgame than having a small, relatively inexpensive Canon with still lenses using DPAF.
For me, I would go with an Amira like Eric has if not going for an Alexa Mini or Mini LF. The regular Alexas, when fully rigged, are just monsters as far as size and weight. Since most of my work is in the BTS/EPK and corporate world, an Arri just doesn't seem to
make much sense. Most of our clients wouldn't pay extra for it and in many situations, an Arri would be a detriment to the situations I have to shoot in.

Even if I am lucky enough to sell our current docu series and make a decent amount of money to invest into the other films/series we are slowly developing, I still couldn't go for an Arri for the types of projects we want to shoot. To me, an Arri is everything that is detrimental to documentary filmmaking.
They are generally larger, heavier, manual focus only and expensive, granted perhaps a Mini rigged out minimally wouldn't be bad? I've done quite a few shoots the past few years where I easily could have lost or seriously damaged my camera and at least with a Canon, it's not that much money.
With an Arri, imagine if you lost an Amira or Mini on a shoot, or had it seriously damaged? Sure, I have production insurance, but it just seems crazy to me to put a $30 or $40k body in some of the situations I have put my C200 into.

To me, Arris and REDs are for when you have a crew, ACs and must have the absolute best. Shooting CRL on a C200 or a C500 MKII is 85% of that, but it doesn't look as good as an Arri or high end RED. But not everything has to look it's absolute best to work.
 
I've been saying for a while that Canon needs to come out with the in-between type of glass that is better than photo but priced lower than their high end PL pro models. Sony, heeding my advice, is going to come out with modded G-Master glass for their FX-9/FX-6 series. Canon should follow suit ... or, at least, mod Sigma Art for the C100/200/300/500.

PS. OK, Sony isn't exactly listening to my bloviating. But they're taking the right steps nonetheless.
 
What Size CFexpress Cards will you buy for Canon C500 Mark II?

What Size CFexpress Cards will you buy for Canon C500 Mark II?

Can i get some feedback about what size cards most of you will be buying with the C500 Mark II?

The C500 Mark II cameras include one Sandisk 512GB CFexpress card and reader in the box.

SanDisk 512GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $599.99
SanDisk 256GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $399.99
SanDisk 128GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $199.99
SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $149.99
SanDisk Extreme PRO CFexpress Card Reader $49.99



 
I'm so hopelessly in love with the Arri images, they really look better than anything else on the market to me. That said, buying into the Arri world is just a whole different ballgame than having a small, relatively inexpensive Canon with still lenses using DPAF.
For me, I would go with an Amira like Eric has if not going for an Alexa Mini or Mini LF. The regular Alexas, when fully rigged, are just monsters as far as size and weight. Since most of my work is in the BTS/EPK and corporate world, an Arri just doesn't seem to
make much sense. Most of our clients wouldn't pay extra for it and in many situations, an Arri would be a detriment to the situations I have to shoot in.

Even if I am lucky enough to sell our current docu series and make a decent amount of money to invest into the other films/series we are slowly developing, I still couldn't go for an Arri for the types of projects we want to shoot. To me, an Arri is everything that is detrimental to documentary filmmaking.
They are generally larger, heavier, manual focus only and expensive, granted perhaps a Mini rigged out minimally wouldn't be bad? I've done quite a few shoots the past few years where I easily could have lost or seriously damaged my camera and at least with a Canon, it's not that much money.
With an Arri, imagine if you lost an Amira or Mini on a shoot, or had it seriously damaged? Sure, I have production insurance, but it just seems crazy to me to put a $30 or $40k body in some of the situations I have put my C200 into.

To me, Arris and REDs are for when you have a crew, ACs and must have the absolute best. Shooting CRL on a C200 or a C500 MKII is 85% of that, but it doesn't look as good as an Arri or high end RED. But not everything has to look it's absolute best to work.

Pretty much the same here. I had considered Red, but the C500 II just makes more economical sense. I'm already invested in a bunch of Canon glass, and my work doesn't call for a Red. 6K CRL will likely be overkill for most of my projects anyway, but atleast it will be relativly future proof, and it should be a capable camera that can shoot everything from event coverage to feature narrative.
 
Can i get some feedback about what size cards most of you will be buying with the C500 Mark II?

The C500 Mark II cameras include one Sandisk 512GB CFexpress card and reader in the box.

SanDisk 512GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $599.99
SanDisk 256GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $399.99
SanDisk 128GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $199.99
SanDisk 64GB Extreme PRO CFexpress Card $149.99
SanDisk Extreme PRO CFexpress Card Reader $49.99




I would say no less than 512GB, as that gets you 30 min in 6k raw (?)
Expensive, but anything less wouldn't be practical.
 
Canon recommends 512GB Card for C500 Mark II

Canon recommends 512GB Card for C500 Mark II

Just learned that the Sandisk 512GB Card is only card that has been tested and qualified by Canon to work with the C500 Mark II:

512GB 1400 MB/sec
256GB 1200 MB/sec
128GB 1200 MB/sec
64GB is only 800 MB/sec

Cinema Raw Light = 32min @ 5.9k
65 min @ 4K
270 min @ 2k

XF-AVC
80min @ 4k 60p
165 min @ 4K 24/30p
215 min @ 2k 60p
425 min @ 2k 24/30p
 
I've been saying for a while that Canon needs to come out with the in-between type of glass that is better than photo but priced lower than their high end PL pro models. Sony, heeding my advice, is going to come out with modded G-Master glass for their FX-9/FX-6 series. Canon should follow suit ... or, at least, mod Sigma Art for the C100/200/300/500.

PS. OK, Sony isn't exactly listening to my bloviating. But they're taking the right steps nonetheless.

Isn't that sort of what the CN E Servo zooms are? Not FF but will work beautifully on the C500 MKII.
 
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