Crazy discussions at dv.com

I like P2. For me the drawbacks are how much each card costs and how little HD footage a card will hold (for now anyway). These things don't bother me that much as working tapeless is great and short record times are fine with me (I can take the time to dump the cards -- I do commercials, short films and features). Perhaps if I was someone shooting long running events (and there are a lot of people who work this way), P2 (in its current form) would not work for me.

It's way to early to say P2 cards will not last or that the technology is bad.

P2 is also great because it allows you to record files (not to one type of tape deck). This gives us variable frame rates and the ability to record many different formats.

I've also thought about backing up/archiving my P2 data and HD distribution. HD DVD and Blu Ray will compliment P2 very well. It's not for everybody, but I like it.

Panasonic could silence a lot of people by releasing bigger cards at lower prices or by having large firestore type devices available. I'm not sure if and when this will happen. I just hope enough people buy into P2 so that Panasonic will stick with it!

What do you guys think?
 
Well put Matt (always a voice of reason in this sea of dv-chaos)

I too think P2 is an incredible idea and technology. Tape sucks, solid state rules.

Anyone remember DAT ? Laserdisc ? Joanie loves Chachi ?
 
Well this goes back to my other point. If the market embraces the technology then not only will the underlying technology strengthen and become more and more affordable, but other third party solutions (which we are already starting to see) will continue to grow as well. If the technology continues to mature it will be no different than working with tape now (well, it'll be different, but it will be standard, if that makes sense). But right now no one knows what will happen. To be an early adopter of technology, any technology, but especially one that is proprietary, is a gamble.

And as many who shoot professional have stated, P2 tech, in it's current state does not fit into their workflow. I figured that would be obvious to anyone evaluating it. But as new storage systems are created, that could change. I don't think ANYONE has a problem with a tapless workflow, rather the issue is the amount of storage available.
 
Thanks John, and by the way for a "relatively new technology" it's being embraced by third party vendors quite well. Most NLE's are developing for it. You have the Firestore and Cineporter. I have a Panasonic brochure in one of my mags that shows a slew of goodies that will work with it. That's half the battle. Now we have to see which user groups embrace it. For indie film the storage is more than adequate in my opinion. No different from working with "gasp" film! But is that enough, or do you need the ENG market? I have no idea....
 
smelni said:
But over at dv.com people seem hell bent on proving that the hvx and p2 is terrible.
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"Hell bent" is a good term to describe it. And anyone who counters the negativity is labeled a "Pananista" or "worships at the altar of PeeToo," according to them.

So -- basically, I quit trying. They're welcome to their opinions, but consider that regardless of what someone says about a product, that does not make it fact. The facts are what the facts are, not what someone tries to portray them to be.

The HVX works. P2 works. The HVX produces an absolutely frickin' gorgeous picture. The BBC researched tapeless systems and they had the chance to buy XDCAM if they wanted, but they chose not to: instead they went with the P2 system and are shooting the biggest sporting event in the world with 'em right now. I'm working with Jay on a national program for one of the top five real estate companies in the country, and we're using strictly HVX/P2 on it. The system works, and it's out there in the real world now, and people are getting paid and making great footage with it.

So, the blowhards who try so very hard to discredit the system can howl and wail if they want, but it will all be to no avail. It reminds me of the scene in "Mulan" where Shan Yu is threatening and demanding the Emperor of China to bow to him, and the Emperor calmly says "No matter how the wind howls, the mountain cannot bow to it."
 
John_Hudson said:
( Excuse me while I laugh my ass off helicopter style all over the office floor) --
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i'm having trouble imagining how one laughs their ass off helicopter style.

is this like a mixture of breakdancing and convulsive laughter?
 
Barry_Green said:
So, the blowhards who try so very hard to discredit the system can howl and wail if they want . . .
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I just wish I can go to the local Walgreens and pick up a 4 Gb card fo $12.95 like I can a tape, and put an hour of HD footage on it
 
P2 is evolution not revolution, if there not ready for the next step they may stay in thier limited and ever more expensive taped world. Personally I can't wait to get rid of dirty heads and tapes forever. I'd been just as happy if the HVX wouldn't have had a tape drive at all. It justs drive the price of the camera up and is something I probably won't use.
 
David S. said:
I just wish I can go to the local Walgreens and pick up a 4 Gb card fo $12.95 like I can a tape, and put an hour of HD footage on it
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Yeah.
That would be cool.

I've always wanted a Viper for $99.95.
That would be cool too.
 
David S. said:
I just wish I can go to the local Walgreens and pick up a 4 Gb card fo $12.95 like I can a tape, and put an hour of HD footage on it
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Is that realistic though??? I can't go to the Walgreens and pick up a miniDV tape taht I would actually use....

This is pro technology, it's not going to be sold at Walgreens and it's going to cost more, much more. But that's always been the case with pro tech.

What is amazing is that this caliber of professional equipment is actually available to US!!! Sure it may cost a lot of money, but it's within reach. A few short years ago, it was nothing more than a pipe dream....

That's what gets me, a company comes along and delivers a technolgoy to people who would have NEVER been able to afford it otherwise, and then some complain that it's not for them or it should do more (I'm not referring to anyone in this thread by the way). It's amazing what this came can do at this price point and folks that really have no professional need for it can still acquire it. I think that's been Johns point all along.
 
And this camera probably isn't for everyone. And P2 certainly isn't for everyone yet. And that's cool. But they delivered an awful lot for the $$$ Want a better HD solution? GREAT! Pony up for Varicam...
 
David S. said:
I just wish I can go to the local Walgreens and pick up a 4 Gb card fo $12.95 like I can a tape, and put an hour of HD footage on it
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And I wish those same tapes would support multiple formats, variable frame rates, and frame-discrete compression that doesn't fall to pieces when strobelights or fireworks go off. And that you could leap from clip to clip instantly and play back whatever you've shot immediately and there wouldn't be any dropouts ever and your footage wouldn't seize up for a 1/2 second whenever a dropout hits, and that you could edit instantly without having to digitize, and that there was never such a thing as a timecode break or a dropped frame or anything else, and that the tapes could transfer footage to an NLE at speeds between 6x and 24x realtime, and that they could take heat and cold and humidity and vibration and shock and being run over by a car all without clogging heads and getting dew sensor warnings and condensation issues.

But we can't all have what we want.

So we pick the system that does what we need. Fortunately there is tape for those who are willing to put up with its issues, and fortunately there is P2 for those who won't.
 
Dude you can transfer footage 24x realtime???

Why tell me this while I'm starting to log my Africa footage. So far one tape....

still not done.....















still not done....
 
Good point Matt, if not P2 or HDV, what else could someone with only a $10k-max budget hope to get to make their film in HD? There isn't anything else and there isn't going to be anything else for a long while now unless the RED changes everything, which I doubt but still.

Anyway, dv.com sounds like a rough place.
 
MattC said:
Is that realistic though??? I can't go to the Walgreens and pick up a miniDV tape taht I would actually use.... .
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Matt.

This was a hyperbole.

I am fully aware that this is a professional camera.

I'm just trying to make a point about availability and cost.

That's all.

I remember paying $800.00 for a 40 megabytes hard drive years ago.

I was just wishful thinking.
 
Jack_Felis said:
Good point Matt, if not P2 or HDV, what else could someone with only a $10k-max budget hope to get to make their film in HD?
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Yep, and here's the gig. HDV is not pro tech, it's consumer tech. Full stop. It was never designed for the pro market. DVCPro HD was and is. Panasonic basically said, "Hey, you guys (DVX owners) are doing high end video work and filmmaking. And you're doing it on a professional level. So instead of selling you guys a watered down, consumer version of HD (like every other manufacturer), we're going to make it so you can have the real thing. There are going to be compromises, of course, because you couldn't afford it otherwise, but still, we'll give you professional HD at a price you can afford. The way were going to do this we're going to use a new professional technology called P2, which is a bit pricey at the moment, but trust us, you're gonna love it. Yes, it will take some getting used to and yes, it'll be a bit awkward at first, but that'll work out."

Seems pretty good to me.... Because without P2, you don't have DVCProHD. And that leaves you with consumer HDV....
 
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I'm going with the cineporter on my cam when it all comes together. P2 via laptop and firewire storage just seems the best solution at the moment. I've got lots of tapes stored up that go back about 15 years. I don't even want to check their condition! I know I'm going to be pissed. Solid state is an investment that makes sense!
 
Barry_Green said:
And I wish those same tapes would support multiple formats, variable frame rates, and frame-discrete compression that doesn't fall to pieces when strobelights or fireworks go off. And that you could leap from clip to clip instantly and play back whatever you've shot immediately and there wouldn't be any dropouts ever and your footage wouldn't seize up for a 1/2 second whenever a dropout hits, and that you could edit instantly without having to digitize, and that there was never such a thing as a timecode break or a dropped frame or anything else, and that the tapes could transfer footage to an NLE at speeds between 6x and 24x realtime, and that they could take heat and cold and humidity and vibration and shock and being run over by a car all without clogging heads and getting dew sensor warnings and condensation issues.
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Barry.

I know all these things.

You are preaching to choir here.

But there is a cost involved, and the technology is still relatively young, and some of the solutions haven't been released, and are unproved, ie Cineporter and Firestore.

My point was about cost and availability.

You are correct in observing that some people elect for tape, and deal or adjust to the issues attendant to tape.

But Barry, there are issues attendant to p2 technology as well -- and many of us are trying to both identify and explore those issues.

To me these are legimitate inquiries served by this board and the experienced, professionals posters here.
 
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