Paint menu FX9 - getting a perfect baked-in look

S

seanadl

Active member
I'm currently using a couple of FX9's - switching between run and gun work and using them to film in-studio for an independent news show (online). At the moment i'm using the S-cinetone profile with a bit of quick tweaking in post production to get the news studio look. However, I'd much prefer to use something more suitable straight out of camera.

Are there any tutorials that show how to dial this directly into the camera via the paint settings?
 
seanadl said:
Are there any tutorials that show how to dial this directly into the camera via the paint settings?
Click to expand...

Try the old tried and tested and frequently used recipe of a modified STD 5 setting:

User matrix ON

and

R-G Set to +10
R-B Set to 0
G-R Set to +10
G-B Set to 0
B-R Set to +10
B-G Set to 0

Leave everything else at the default values until you have tried these settings. If you like it add salt and pepper later.

Commonly referred to as the Warm 135+10 Matrix. Not had a network not like it.

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
Try the old tried and tested and frequently used recipe of a modified STD 5 setting:

User matrix ON

and

R-G Set to +10
R-B Set to 0
G-R Set to +10
G-B Set to 0
B-R Set to +10
B-G Set to 0

Leave everything else at the default values until you have tried these settings. If you like it add salt and pepper later.

Commonly referred to as the Warm 135+10 Matrix. Not had a network not like it.

Chris Young
Click to expand...

Cheers! Very helpful. I'll be trying this out today when filming.

This is the first time i've delved into the pain menu's. In the matrix menu it has the option to turn preset matrix on or off... Should this be on? If so, shoudl that be set to BT.709, or would this override the user matrix settings below? Sorry if that's a stupid question!
 
seanadl said:
Cheers! Very helpful. I'll be trying this out today when filming.

This is the first time i've delved into the pain menu's. In the matrix menu it has the option to turn preset matrix on or off... Should this be on? If so, shoudl that be set to BT.709, or would this override the user matrix settings below? Sorry if that's a stupid question!
Click to expand...

On the FX9 go with PRESET MATRIX set to ON and in the PRESET SELECT menu go with BT.709 if you are going to be working with the above 135+10 matrix. This 135+10 Matrix was designed to work with Rec 709. Also if you are working alongside your normal broadcast 2/3" cameras you will more than likely set your MASTER BLACK LEVEL to -3 (Maybe -2) Normally I find for broadcast on the STD 5 709 with the above 135+10 Matrix settings I'm running MASTER BLACK at -3. This sets the Black Level just above blanking, at about 5mV. The normal factory setting of '0' sits at about 15mV. DON'T go under -3 as that will now push black vision below blanking. In other words your blacks will be totally clipped, crushed to death, so any detail you had in the close to black vision are lost forever. Good luck!

Chris Young
 
cyvideo said:
On the FX9 go with PRESET MATRIX set to ON and in the PRESET SELECT menu go with BT.709 if you are going to be working with the above 135+10 matrix. This 135+10 Matrix was designed to work with Rec 709. Also if you are working alongside your normal broadcast 2/3" cameras you will more than likely set your MASTER BLACK LEVEL to -3 (Maybe -2) Normally I find for broadcast on the STD 5 709 with the above 135+10 Matrix settings I'm running MASTER BLACK at -3. This sets the Black Level just above blanking, at about 5mV. The normal factory setting of '0' sits at about 15mV. DON'T go under -3 as that will now push black vision below blanking. In other words your blacks will be totally clipped, crushed to death, so any detail you had in the close to black vision are lost forever. Good luck!

Chris Young
Click to expand...

Cheers! So I think that's what I had it on yesterday - PRESET SELECT on BT.709 and USER MATRIX set at the 135+10 settings mentioned above. The image looks great - but I'm kicking myself as I overexposed. I guess switching from the cinetone profile to this makes the image a lot brighter under the same lighting conditions. Need to play around more with lighting and exposure.

One odd thing - the camera seemed to struggle to set a white balance using a white balance card. Kept getting something about 'tint out of range'.
 
seanadl said:
Oops! Freudian slip?
Click to expand...

to input an actual thought.. there is no such thing as perfect as scene DR changes. So you would need need to look to two..
flat light
contrast light

another actual thought is to set a test scene with a video card and have a live monitor showing vertorscope.. this might help you see what is going on

without a vectorscope and colourcard you might be quite lost ?
 
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seanadl said:
One odd thing - the camera seemed to struggle to set a white balance using a white balance card. Kept getting something about 'tint out of range'.
Click to expand...

Until you get used to this 135+10 709 matrix I would suggest, that if white balancing off white turn on your zebras set to 65 IRE and just as they start on your white card pull the balance. The camera should balance fine and accurately then. I find for absolute consistency of white balance I always white balance this way. If your exposure is a bit too hot your white balances can be affected as the R, G and B channels do not respond in an equal manner as the exposure increases. The R, G and B curves will start to deviate from one another. At 65 IRE they are all sitting at about the same level. Over about 70 IRE the difference in the R, G and B curves can start to skew a white balance. Overall though this 135+10 matrix gives the "old Sony 709 look" a new lease of life with a subtlety different feel and richness. I find if shooting skin tones this matrix delivers its best at 65 IRE. I normally gate the zebras at 3% so as soon as I see them that's it for skin tones, most Caucasian skin tones that is. You obviously have to allow and compensate for differing skin tone levels from around the globe.

Chris Young
 
morgan_moore said:
to input an actual thought.. there is no such thing as perfect as scene DR changes. So you would need need to look to two..
flat light
contrast light

another actual thought is to set a test scene with a video card and have a live monitor showing vertorscope.. this might help you see what is going on

without a vectorscope and colourcard you might be quite lost ?
Click to expand...

Will be getting a large monitor soon so I can see what's going on. I find it hard to see waveforms and vectorscopes on the small monitor on the camera.
 
cyvideo said:
Until you get used to this 135+10 709 matrix I would suggest, that if white balancing off white turn on your zebras set to 65 IRE and just as they start on your white card pull the balance. The camera should balance fine and accurately then. I find for absolute consistency of white balance I always white balance this way. If your exposure is a bit too hot your white balances can be affected as the R, G and B channels do not respond in an equal manner as the exposure increases. The R, G and B curves will start to deviate from one another. At 65 IRE they are all sitting at about the same level. Over about 70 IRE the difference in the R, G and B curves can start to skew a white balance. Overall though this 135+10 matrix gives the "old Sony 709 look" a new lease of life with a subtlety different feel and richness. I find if shooting skin tones this matrix delivers its best at 65 IRE. I normally gate the zebras at 3% so as soon as I see them that's it for skin tones, most Caucasian skin tones that is. You obviously have to allow and compensate for differing skin tone levels from around the globe.

Chris Young
Click to expand...

Thank you for this! I'll try this out when filming today.
 
How well would this profile work on other Sony cameras trying to match and work alongside a FX9?
S-Cinetone can be tricky to match.
Is this a possible workaround?
Thanks
 
Finbo said:
How well would this profile work on other Sony cameras trying to match and work alongside a FX9?
S-Cinetone can be tricky to match.
Is this a possible workaround?
Thanks
Click to expand...

That is exactly why I use this matrix. Nearly every week I have the problem of setting up mixed cameras for football events. They range from FS7s, PMW-400s and 450s, PDW-F700 and 800s, PMW-300s etc, etc. Most of your broadcast Sony cameras run a proper SMPTE Matrix and have a STD 5 preset. This STD 5 preset is the one to use with this 135+10 matrix. This will drag all the cameras into basically the same ballpark. Fine tune adjustments between cameras can then be tweaked via the Multi-matrix.

Chris Young
 
Hope it's helpful!

Should have added in FX9 and 6 as of late. Also, ensure all cameras are running the same black levels. You will find some broadcasters will run higher black levels than others. That's a chief engineer's personal choice sort of thing. The only real way to do that accurately is to set up all the black levels at the same time on a Tektronix or similar waveform monitor.

Chris Young
 
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My experience with Sony is that the custom mode gammas leave a lot to be desired since 1d gamma curves have a lot of issues in the highlights among other things. I'd always just bake a look/lut instead, but it does require you to shoot in cineEI I believe. You might want to consider just baking an s709 look?
 
Doug Jensen said:
Try going to a neutral scene file, such as Standard or S-Cinetone and then re-white and see what you get.
Click to expand...

Will definitely give that a go next time I film this weekend. If that works, is it ok to switch back to the STD 5 matrix using the white balance performed in the neutral scene file?
 
nyvz said:
My experience with Sony is that the custom mode gammas leave a lot to be desired since 1d gamma curves have a lot of issues in the highlights among other things. I'd always just bake a look/lut instead, but it does require you to shoot in cineEI I believe. You might want to consider just baking an s709 look?
Click to expand...

Didn't consider that. Might have to try that too.
 
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