C300: C300 mkiii?

[Ben_Ericson]

Personally I despise sharpening artifacts, the look horrible anytime you perceive them, so I'll rarely (if ever) add sharpening to an image.

Same here, but I have always thought that the C300 can use around 7 - 15 Sharpening in Premiere Pro. The Log profiles are very soft.

From what I have seen, the C300 Mk3 looks quite a bit sharper.

 

[NorBro]

Can you sharpen the C-Log in the C300 inside the camera? ("Strength" control?)

 

[owlbot]

Davinci adds +10 sharpening to all raw files.

I did not know that. Do you actually mean "+10" like based on their sharp/blur parameter or just "a lot"? How do you counteract that?

Can you sharpen the C-Log in the C300 inside the camera? ("Strength" control?)

Yeah it's like, -10 to +10 I think. On my C500 I had it at 0 and have recently started testing at -10 just to see what the difference is. There's a few sharpening parameters.

 

[NorBro]

The C300 Mark II is a pretty mediocre camera...maybe you just like that older sensor? (Which is of course perfectly fine.)

Cameras change as it's been 5 years, you know?

People still swear by things like CCD sensors and old Panasonic Varicam SD/HD color science, etc. I love the images from old Blackmagics like the BMCC and BMPC.

Well if it's so mediocre, it shouldn't be that hard to produce a better looking image! I shoot a ton of interviews and clients just love Canon Skin tone. The softness is a good thing with the Mk2. I love those cameras as well, I also own the bmpcc and bmmcc.

This is a C500ii example, which to me looks much closer to the Canon look that I am used to seeing. I'll most likely be purchasing the C300 or C500. I don't think the images are the same, even though the cameras look identical. Different sensors all together. Hopefully some questions will be answered as we see more footage emerge.

https://vimeo.com/436780717

I just wanted to circle back here and tell you that I've actually recently fallen in love with the C300 Mark II.

I never spent enough time with it 4-5 years ago to know any better and wrote it off quickly because of no 4K/60p, but I truly believe it is Canon's best.

Surely not on paper with the most powerful technology and output, but I think it has the most beautiful color science Canon has ever created in their history of cameras.

After using the C70 (overrated camera) and the C300 Mark III, I simply [and humbly] prefer the C300 Mark II's C-Log2 rendering. The palette is one-of-a-kind.

C-Log2 in these newer sensors and the converted C-Log2 from the C200's CRL is just not the same. It just does not look the same as it exclusively does in the original C300 Mark II. The other cameras have the resolution and the HFRs, and the better DR and less noise, but the II's image is so pleasing.

(It's important to mention that I don't have the same feelings about C-Log or C-Log3 in the camera.)

I never cared enough or had the opportunity to look into what you were saying (not just in the above quote but in many of your other posts), and it's almost been a year so not sure where you stand with all of your observations today, but just wanted to follow up with my enlightenment.

 

[Run&Gun]

I just wanted to circle back here and tell you that I've actually recently fallen in love with the C300 Mark II.

I never spent enough time with it 4-5 years ago to know any better and wrote it off quickly because of no 4K/60p, but I truly believe it is Canon's best.

Surely not on paper with the most powerful technology and output, but I think it has the most beautiful color science Canon has ever created in their history of cameras.

After using the C70 (overrated camera) and the C300 Mark III, I simply [and humbly] prefer the C300 Mark II's C-Log2 rendering. The palette is one-of-a-kind.

C-Log2 in these newer sensors and the converted C-Log2 from the C200's CRL is just not the same. It just does not look the same as it exclusively does in the original C300 Mark II. The other cameras have the resolution and the HFRs, and the better DR and less noise, but the II's image is so pleasing.

(It's important to mention that I don't have the same feelings about C-Log or C-Log3 in the camera.)

I never cared enough or had the opportunity to look into what you were saying (not just in the above quote but in many of your other posts), and it's almost been a year so not sure where you stand with all of your observations today, but just wanted to follow up with my enlightenment.

When the C300 mkII came out, I was unimpressed, as well. I saw zero reason to buy one/upgrade at the time. I had a C300 and an F55(still have both). I felt I was covered. But I have a client that started buying 300/II’s as their OG 300’s wore out and after starting to shoot with some of their II’s, I really liked the image, too.

 

[NorBro]

Do you think you'll ever buy another camera again?

[I know you had some interest in the Komodo at one point.]

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I recently bought a second C300 Mark III. Haven't gotten much accessories for it yet, waiting on B&H quote response. I always like to have three of each camera when possible, so with the C70 I'm now back to having three matching cameras. I've been liking them. I can now start to phase out the Mark IIs, though I'll keep them around for when a client specifically requests them, I'm double booked and have my DP using my camera(s), or when I just need a bunch of cameras like next week's five camera live musical performance shoot.

 

[NorBro]

Where's the C500 Mark II?

I thought you were a pro, man...I'm very surprised.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

More pics of my C300 Mark III setup. I'm quite happy with the modularity of the LCD screen with my setup as well as the quickly removable Anton Bauer mount I setup in addition to a P-tap velcroed battery that can go on top of the camera when I don't want the extra length that an Anton Bauer battery setup adds.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

Where's the C500 Mark II?

I thought you were a pro, man...I'm very surprised.

Poor battery life, poor name recognition with clients and complicating my camera lineup with a non-C300 camera (just like the C70 complicates things a bit cause I have to explain it to clients; easier now since I can just do two C300 Mark IIIs and keep the C70 for Glidecam/small cam type work), no dual gain ISO, lesser slow motion. I don't really think it's a better camera for my work even if it was the same price (which it probably will be on Ebay before long). Maybe if I was doing narrative work the full frame would be worth it, but I always shoot Arri for narrative.

 

[cpreston]

I currently have a C500MKII and two C300MKII's. I use the C300MKII's for events and interviews. I have the C500MKII ready for gimbal and b-roll work. I appreciate that I can the C500MKII balanced on a single handled gimbal, and the ability to switch between full frame and S35 makes the 24-105 a very useful lens. I keep the C300MKII's for events and multicamera interviews. In a neutral color profile and and Rec 709, I find that the C300MKII's and C500MKII match each other quite well as long as they are white balanced using a grey card. My C300MKII's are naturally on the magenta side if not white balanced. If the C300MKII's had a longGOP 4K, I would probably never want to replace them. I might even buy another since I find myself doing a lot of multicam. The battery life is so much better on the C300MKII vs the C500MKII that it becomes a consideration in which camera I will use on a job. I haven't used the C300MKIII, but I have used the C70. I thought I might end up replacing the C300MKII's with C70's, but I just find that camera extremely limiting with single HDMI port and the poor LCD screen.

 

[Run&Gun]

Do you think you'll ever buy another camera again?

[I know you had some interest in the Komodo at one point.]

Oh yeah. I don't have a problem buying cameras, as long as there's the work for them that is either there or can be "drummed up" because of it. Unless I hit the lottery, then I'd just buy whatever I wanted, regardless.

If not for Covid shutting everything down last year, I probably would have gotten a Komodo, but since the show that was being pitched got put on hold, I didn't see much reason. I've used my friends, and I do like it. It can be fun for certain situations.

 

[NorBro]

I currently have a C500MKII and two C300MKII's. I use the C300MKII's for events and interviews. I have the C500MKII ready for gimbal and b-roll work. I appreciate that I can the C500MKII balanced on a single handled gimbal, and the ability to switch between full frame and S35 makes the 24-105 a very useful lens. I keep the C300MKII's for events and multicamera interviews. In a neutral color profile and and Rec 709, I find that the C300MKII's and C500MKII match each other quite well as long as they are white balanced using a grey card. My C300MKII's are naturally on the magenta side if not white balanced. If the C300MKII's had a longGOP 4K, I would probably never want to replace them. I might even buy another since I find myself doing a lot of multicam. The battery life is so much better on the C300MKII vs the C500MKII that it becomes a consideration in which camera I will use on a job. I haven't used the C300MKIII, but I have used the C70. I thought I might end up replacing the C300MKII's with C70's, but I just find that camera extremely limiting with single HDMI port and the poor LCD screen.

If you ever feel like it/have the time, I'd love to see ungraded files from both cameras (300 II and 500 II) of the same thing in C-Log2 (cinema gamut).

Oh yeah. I don't have a problem buying cameras, as long as there's the work for them that is either there or can be "drummed up" because of it. Unless I hit the lottery, then I'd just buy whatever I wanted, regardless.

If not for Covid shutting everything down last year, I probably would have gotten a Komodo, but since the show that was being pitched got put on hold, I didn't see much reason. I've used my friends, and I do like it. It can be fun for certain situations.

Maybe you'll get one soon...

 

[rob norton]

Here you go NorBro, these are c300ii for your reference:

(IDK if it's c-log2 though) (also mixed in with renders, drone footage)

- https://vimeo.com/206408342

- https://vimeo.com/159497710

- https://vimeo.com/158724901

 

[NorBro]

TY, but those are graded though...

I've watched so much footage in the last week that it's paralysis by analysis at this point.

I do see some similarities...you can usually tell by the shadows. C-Log2 is "brighter". But anyone can crush the footage enough to have it match almost anything else.

The reason I'd like to see some ungraded C500 II C-Log2 is to see how it compares. The newer cameras are beautiful with their resolution, but they appear "crunchier" as well.

Of course my descriptors are spot on. lol

 

[laverdir]

I just wanted to circle back here and tell you that I've actually recently fallen in love with the C300 Mark II.

...

C-Log2 in these newer sensors and the converted C-Log2 from the C200's CRL is just not the same. It just does not look the same as it exclusively does in the original C300 Mark II.

How did you convert CRL from C200?

And, more importantly, how do you "consume" C-Log2 from C300MII, converted to Rec709, sRGB, P3, Rec2020 ...?

For C200 CRL, try to find older Canon's LUT pack and use LUTs from "full to narrow" directory.

 

[NorBro]

CRD and FCP, Rec709.

CRD provides you more options (brutally slow though).

FCP detects CRL and only uses its built-in C-Log2 LUT for CRL but it doesn't look right.

And it's actually interesting you say to try to find the older pack (I used them all) because I noticed a month or two ago that they are only providing the "full-to-full-range".

Any idea why they dropped the narrow options?

 

[laverdir]

CRD and FCP, Rec709.

CRD provides you more options (brutally slow though).

FCP detects CRL and only uses its built-in C-Log2 LUT for CRL but it doesn't look right.

And it's actually interesting you say to try to find the older pack (I used them all) because I noticed a month or two ago that they are only providing the "full-to-full-range".

Any idea why they dropped the narrow options?

I have plenty of ideas why, but those are just speculations, one of my favorites is always ignorance.

Send me some properly exposed CRL clip and I'll return frame converted as a result of my workflow for comparison with your pipeline.

In new Canon LUT pack there are no more options for converting to Rec709, just WideDR gamma.

One more thing that's interesting, C200 CRL converted to BT709 WideDR is different then MXF BT709 WideDR recorded in same conditions (camera, lens, subject, environment, with few seconds time difference).
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[NorBro]

IDC too much about it right now but there's clearly a difference (even a subtle one) with all of these cameras (as there should be).

We've had this conversation before about Canon LUTs and you know where I stand on them. Until the recent changes they've pretty much been using the same ones for the last 5-6 years with 10+ different C-Log1/2/3 cameras.

For me - at this time - I think the softer IQ and colors of the C300 Mark II result in the most unique look out of the bunch.

 

[Ben_Ericson]

For me - at this time - I think the softer IQ and colors of the C300 Mark II result in the most unique look out of the bunch.

Agreed. I've thought this since the first time I saw footage on the Mk3. They also removed a lot of color profiles, including Clog2 BT.709, which I thought was a really nice profile.

That being said, the C70 is nice for a lot of things. I used it on a scout last week for grabbing test frames, the built in de-squeeze for anamorphic is really nice, and the 120fps and speed booster are nice for some things. The log files feel thicker and they're able to be pushed around a bit more.

no dual gain ISO

There is so much talk about the "DGO Sensor," but the images between my C70 and a C300ii in log mode are pretty close. When I tested Wide DR, there was significantly more noise in the C70 footage. Yes, the C-Log 2 is cleaner, but you'd expect that from any sensor that was 5 years newer, "DGO" or not... Here's the tests I did. The color is very very close, but there's something I like more about the Mk2.

When pushing the sensor, the native ISO in Log2 on the C70 is cleaner (no weird vertical blue lines or colored noise.) High ISO is cleaner on the Mk2.