What are Red rattling on about?

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jaybirch

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I was reading through some posts on the Red forum and saw a post from a user .....

"Canon, as has been discussed here on reduser quite a bit lately, accomplishes their 30fps 1080 by skipping rows, etc, etc... There are many sacrifices. It's not a high framerate, high speed sensor like the RED offerings are. It's a 5fps sensor essentially, that makes all kinds of compromises to offer you a 1080 30fps option."

Now, I know the Canon 5DII is no pro video camera, but this statement just seems ridiculous...
 
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Did you see the Zacato camera shootout on Vimeo? They have an 18yr old indie filmmaker, a highend DP, and a Red fanboi. Quite amusing conversation they had..

Then onto the footage, the Red was soft and really SUCKed (relatively speaking when factoring price) compared to the XHA1, HVX200 etc... Poor showing indeed.
 
cool link.

I have no problems with Red talking up their own products (even if it is 6-12 months early) but bad mouthing their competition is quite embarassing for them.... especially as, by the time Scarlett is out, Nikon and/or Canon will probably have alot of the early video dslr problem wrapped up.
 
Well they aren't lying, the 5Dmk2 im sure employs a down sampling of some sort...

Its not designed to be a Cinema camera. It just isnt.
 
I don't think it's a 5fps sensor. There are compromises for sure and I don't have the technical knowledge to point them out. It may be possible that the camera uses 1 every 3 pixels to avoid downconversion, but this is very different from skipping raws, that I think would give you lower results than interlaced video. I filmed a few scenes with the camera and motion is very smooth.
 
princigalli said:
I don't think it's a 5fps sensor.
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How many stills can' you take in a burst with that camera?
Perhaps that is what they're referring to.

The original statement seems to me as if what their trying to say is that the Canon is a still camera being made to shoot video (which is essentially the truth).

That said - Canon's camera is definitely throwing away quite a bit of data to get video out of that camera.
That's pretty clear when you compare the still and video quality against eachother.
 
No one is saying it is a cinema camera, not even canon. But it is also definatly not a 5fps sensor... unless, as said, they mean frameburst... in which case if has nothing to do with the video mode. The mark II is outputing good quality 1080p, the way they do it isn't and shouldn't be an issue.

The fact is, Red are trying to belittle a camera that is out on the market, when they only have a model that is around 7 times more expensive, so incomparble... and some 3d renders of some models that have already changed three times, again incomparble.

I have no special affinty for canon (usually buy Nikon/panasonic) I just think it is bad marketing by Red and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
 
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TimurCivan said:
Well they aren't lying, the 5Dmk2 im sure employs a down sampling of some sort...

Its not designed to be a Cinema camera. It just isnt.
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then why do they feel threatened enough to go out of their way of bad mouthing it in a very sarcastic way? pathetic

gimme a working model before you can talk big.
 
cant they do something similar to 5d mkII? except in red code and full control? or the yjust have the need to make their products more high end?
 
First of all that was my statement that you are quoting, and I DON'T work for RED, and am NOT affiliated with them in any way... Unless you are unable to see in color, that should be pretty obvious. :)

The sensor in that camera is not a high framerate sensor. So, they can't do full resolution video at higher framerates. They accomplish it by skipping rows. The comments were geared towards people who seem to think that there are cameras with S35 sensors capable of high resolution video for under 3 grand. It's a great still camera.

Later,
Jason
 
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Jason Ramsey said:
First of all that was my statement that you are quoting, and I DON'T work for RED, and am NOT affiliated with them in any way... That should be pretty obvious.

The sensor in that camera is not a high framerate sensor. So, they can't do full resolution video at higher framerates. They accomplish it by skipping rows. The comments were geared towards people who seem to think that there are cameras with S35 sensors capable of high resolution video for under 3 grand.

Later,
Jason
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AMEN! After playing with the 5D2 in Chicago, I just don't see this product as a first generation being for many professional filmmakers. It's a new way of thinking will less controls. I mean you get 4 controls of the image settings... the only two usable ones are sharpness and contrast. There's a tint and one more. Anyway, if you want control, don't consider the 5D2 your bacon!


dcloud said:
cant they do something similar to 5d mkII? except in red code and full control? or the yjust have the need to make their products more high end?
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They are doing something... the Scarlet. I mean it's not going to be cheap, but the thing is... with lower prices you sacrifice the professional features. REDs not our saviours so to speak. They're making cameras for their user market which isn't necessarily low-end guerrilla indie filmmakers, but rather semipros to professionals.


jaybirch said:
The mark II is outputing good quality 1080p, the way they do it isn't and shouldn't be an issue.
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No dice here my friend. Are you looking at the footage on Vimeo? You really should look at the footage on a production quality monitor or even on your own computer monitor. Sure it's full frame and has beautiful DOF, but it's really only adequate for video destined for the internet. It's just not there yet.


jaybirch said:
I have no special affinty for canon (usually buy Nikon/panasonic) I just think it is bad marketing by Red and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
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RED didn't say this statement therefore your mouth shouldn't be bitter but sweet!


Luis Caffesse said:
The original statement seems to me as if what their trying to say is that the Canon is a still camera being made to shoot video (which is essentially the truth).
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As Leo Laporte used to say on TechTV, products that integrate multiple technological purposes are never as good as dedicated devices. If you want a photo camera, get that. If you want a video/film camera, get that. If you want both, don't try!


Luis Caffesse said:
That said - Canon's camera is definitely throwing away quite a bit of data to get video out of that camera. That's pretty clear when you compare the still and video quality against eachother.
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I agree with this

KKeller said:
Here is a link to the video booggerg2 was referring to.
http://vimeo.com/2437826
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booggerg2 said:
Did you see the Zacato camera shootout on Vimeo? They have an 18yr old indie filmmaker, a highend DP, and a Red fanboi. Quite amusing conversation they had..

Then onto the footage, the Red was soft and really SUCKed (relatively speaking when factoring price) compared to the XHA1, HVX200 etc... Poor showing indeed.
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Just thought I'd plug in that I'm that 18 year old filmmaker. I produced the shootout and welcome everyone to check out here.

The reason the RED was so soft... well I'm going back to production notes, the RED operator, as well as the post production house to try to figure out why this was.
 
It's a great still camera. But, a 3,000 dollar S35 professional motion capture tool it is not. RED can likely thank them and Nikon for pushing them to create this whole new line of DSMC cameras, and setting the bar very high. And, we can be glad that if Canon and Nikon wish to respond that it will be great for us as RED is forcing anyone who wishes to respond to move much quicker than has been the norm in rolling out technology in the past.

later,
Jason
 
People wanted full frame and 'live view' and they have it, step two was video. You can shoot video with it, altough the norm is HD, it is not a HD videocamera. It is build as a still camera, a good still camera it is.
 
I think that what the Reduser was trying to say is that the Canon sensor is´nt a hight speed sensor at all when using the full sensor frame. To acomplish that 30fps output, they skip some rows of pixels, getting a faster read and output, but not using the entire sensor. So, some movements would show some distortion and artifacts... I personally think that´s TRUE and the canon´s sensor can´t output a full frame image downscalled to 1080p... It´s a row skipping sensor...
 
If you're not a part of the marketing, then perhaps you shouldn't have "marketing" under your name on RedUser. Is this is something Red do when you have made x amount of posts? If so, it is yet more bad marketing.. as it is misleading to have people reading your posts and thinking you are part of the company. I have no idea what you are on about with regard to not seeing in colour. All I see is your name and the clear words MARKETING under your name. Nether the less, I am sorry for posting this as a direct quote from Red.

I love the idea of Red, but I DO have a bitter taste in my mouth regarding how they do marketing and unfortunatly it is putting me off buying what looks like a great set of future products. I know there are plenty of other people who feel the same as me.
 
The thing is, the Red Fanbois gets caught up in 3K resolution.. most of us will NEVER project our crap onto a theater screen.. so the advantage of more resolution is really diminished.. If you're shooting for theatrical release, then you shouldn't even be in the Scarlet vs 5D2 discussion (One doesn't exist, the other is not suitable for theatrical release)

For showing on HDTVs and Internet, the advantage of creamy DOF, shooting at high ISO, and access to wonderful Canon primes far outweighs the benefit of a Red sensors that "doesn't do line skipping" (WHO CARES!? BTW) . Granted no one should be using the 5D2 for long form recording, but for B rolls and beauty shots, IT CAN'T be beat by anything else out there. See: http://flickr.com/photos/msmelva/3086697234/ (5D2 + 85mm @ f1.2. Is anything else better?)

At the end of the day, it's still comparing a frame grab from a 5D2 to a spect sheet from Red.. I'll go with the one that I can actually use.
 
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