64GB P2 Card announcment

The price per gig has largely complied with Moore's law though. From $275/GB in 2005 to $40/GB in 2008.

I think if anything the underlying frustration here is that there's no cheap option. As in, if it's $40/GB, why can't I buy a $160 4GB card? Why is the price of entry of the cheapest card still $900? That's the part that I find frustrating. I think the 64GB card's probably reasonably priced as per what we've come to expect, but there should be a $400 8GB card available too.
 
Barry_Green said:
The price per gig has largely complied with Moore's law though. From $275/GB in 2005 to $40/GB in 2008.

I think if anything the underlying frustration here is that there's no cheap option. As in, if it's $40/GB, why can't I buy a $160 4GB card? Why is the price of entry of the cheapest card still $900? That's the part that I find frustrating. I think the 64GB card's probably reasonably priced as per what we've come to expect, but there should be a $400 8GB card available too.
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Agreed. But that issue differs from the many complaints dealing strictly with the existing price of the 32 and 16 GB cards. :)
 
Well, yeah, I said long ago that I think that we're overdue for a price drop on the 16 at least. If the 16 was going for $650 I think there'd be less complaining about the 64.
 
Blackout said:
I don't care if Panasonic is spending more than they are charging - they are doing something WRONG id the prices are still this high at this point. It's YEARS down the line and this just shouldn't be the cost for ANY type of storage I don't care WHAT fancy shmancy proprietary crap they have going to make 4 $10 cards into 1 $2400 card. Take it out... rethink it. Something's wrong. These prices DO NOT COMPUTE. DANGER WILL ROBINSON.
Click to expand...

As Jan from Panasonic has explained about 8 bazillion times on these boards, the SD cards inside the P2 card are NOT simple $10 cards. These are absolute top-of-the-line, error-free, SD cards that are NOT available commercially. You CANNOT go and buy one of these SD cards anywhere (and if you could, I would bet that the price you'd end up paying would probably show that the P2 card is not overpriced).
 
KMR:

This board goes through this exchange every so often.

The same arguments are advanced and the same responses are posted.

More or less.

p2 cards have dropped significantly per gigabyte over the last three years as Barry and others have observed.

Everybody prefers less expensive.

HD is pricey. DVCProHD produces the image we and our clients prefer.

Yes, I wish cards were less expensive. Who doesn't?

64 GB cards are not in our workflow. We have three 16 cards that basically we bunded in separate purchases.
 
AFTER MANY HITS, MANY DVX USERS SEEM TO BE DEFENDING PANASONIC'S P2 CURRENT Prices. I JUST DON'T GET IT. THIS USERS FORUM IS STARTING TO SOUND LIKE A PANASONIC EMPLOYEE FORUM. THIS HE SAID SHE SAID RHETORIC TO CONVINCE THE REST INTO CONTINUE BUYING A VERY EXPENSIVE P2 CARD, IS HARD TO BELIEVE. HOWEVER, THIS TOPIC HAS ACCUMULATED MANY REPLIES AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD DWELL ON THAT AS A CUSTOMER REQUEST NOTHING ELSE. P2 = $$$$$
 
The 64GB card is the only memory-device on earth I know that has not dropped in price per GB as a new generation (1 year after the 32GB card). THAT'S WHAT SHOCKED ME (oooops - caps lock was stuck...). Many of us (and any no-P2-user) would have expect, that a memory-device should get cheaper per GB within a certain time..... and we're talking about 12 months...

btw: I remember that Barry explained how the P2-cards use much more than 100mbps during recording - so that's just to defend the P2-technology... but I won't defend its price-politics though - we had some statements here some years ago, how P2-card prices will supposingly develop with each new generation. And they just didn't that way....
 
Too much money is still to be made by news and broadcast companies who have adopted the p2 format and buy cards by the dozens for them to worry about us poor independent filmakers. we are just a small piece of the pie to them.
 
For me, this is about a Panasonic customer that bought the HVX200 when it first came out
because I needed HD (or wanted) for a full length film I was to shoot 6 months later.

Before this, I used Sony SD cameras to shoot gigs for pay.
I gave up the other cameras to buy the HVX200. With it, I was able to charge more, but I worked less because I could no longer do the events I use to do.

The HVX200 was not good enough in low light for me to take a lot of the jobs I use to take.
In multi camera shoots in low light, the HVX didn't match well to the other cameras.
For standard def, my Panasonic MX3000 always outperformed the HVX200 (in low light).

So here I am a few years later having just sold the HVX200.
I did it to buy the HPX170.

My struggle is that if I buy the HPX170, i still have to deal with the same issues of the HVX200 with the exception that the 170 is ever so slightly better in low light. The other issues are:

1. P2 cars are too expensive for me to buy more (I have 2 eights and would get a 16 with new purchase, but not enough for a ful days shooting alone).

2. I also have the firestore but not enoough batteries to go all day, nor do I trust it enough on a paying gig to ever really use it for such.

3. P2 cards don't come with a player. That is frustrating (Although I have a sony SZ750 laptop made from aluminum and carbon fiber that will take the P2 card, before that I was hosed)

4. P2 footage is not full raster, and as such, everything that is, looks more detailed.
I have been shooting alot lately with my personal use canon hf100 camera and it looks
better and more detailed in low light than the HVX200 does. If I bring my own light, the
HVX200 looks better.

5. For the Panasonic cameras to look great, you need a crew and accessories in tow.

My situation is that I WANT to buy a Panasonic camera, but the P2 card is what is keeping me from doing that, hen the P2 card was what use to be the reason to buy the Panasonic cameras. I feel that Panasonic needs to make the P2 card the reason to buy the cameras again. The only way to do that is:

1. Get P2 pricing below what we think it should cost. They can keep the latest cards high dollar as people with money will pay whatever. Just look at intel's model. THe latest cpu's cost lots. The lower ones are almost given away in comparison.

2. The masses need a better offload method or inexpensive P2 card reader.

If these two issues are not addressed, I can see Panasonic going from the indie film makers choice, to just another has been.

I sold my used HVX200 for $3,700 with 8 gig card.

I have 2 other 8 gig cards, and a 250 gig firestore in mint condition (used twice).
I can either stay Panasonic, or sell the above and that will put me in the EX1 street price range.

For me, this post is about am I going to stay Panasonic or go to something else.
I can really care less what the 64 gig card cost (as I won't be a buyer for it), but the 8 gig or 16 gig pricing is what will keep me in the game.
 
1. Put a newer HDD in your Firestore and your battery time almost doubles.
2. Put a SSD in your Firestore and your battery live almost quadruples.
3. Buy that italian swap bay, a view SSDs and 2 big Firestore batterys. Than you can shoot all day AND night long.

I don´t get it why so much poeple got so much trouble with it.
Maybe the Quicktime implementation is not that perfect - I never use it.
I just hit "make P2" at the end and swap everything over to my NLE.

And mine was even used.
First thing I did is to install the newest firmware update, my Firestore never ever let my down and I never lost any footage, thou I treaded it rough (like falling several feet from a crane into the snow last week) The SSD has no problems with shake. Find a way to secure the 4 pin connector and you are golden.


When that Cineform recorder finaly (sic) comes out all my dreams come true and the Firestore will hit Ebay. Till then it has payed for himselfe several times i.e. it startet paying ME a long time ago.

Frank
 
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amen Right Mind! The way of the World! brutal and scandaless! Rich get richer, & the poor get poorer. "Unless you can afford and have what it takes to make a noticeable production, then you might be on your way to not being as poor." -Delrio
 
Barry_Green said:
Then you're in the wrong market. Complaining about the price of the product in saying that it's too high just means that you're not the target market. But to say that an extremely functional, workable strategy employed by successful businesspeople worldwide is "insane" and "crap" and "baloney" is just silly.

There are people out there who think $5,000 for a tripod is "insane." And there are plenty of people who gladly pay that because that's what a quality tripod is worth to them. Others think they don't need anything more advanced than a Bogen 501. And there are those of us who would NEVER show up to a professional job with a Bogen 501!

There are people out there who will buy a $44,000 Hasselblad DSLR, because that's what they need and that's what it's worth to them. And then there are those who think a D90 represents the pinnacle of photographic excellence and are happy with its $900 price tag.

There are people who shoot weddings for $300. There are other people who charge $10,000 to shoot a wedding. If your average gig price is $500 to $2,000 then obviously a 64GB P2 card is not aimed at you. But for those of us who charge $20,000 to $100,000 per job, a 64GB P2 card is NO BIG DEAL. You just buy what you need, charge it back to the client, and move on.

Angelcyk's got it right - if it's too expensive for you, don't buy it. But badmouthing those who are successful in business, who buy $2600 products and charge their clients an additional $2600 and then have that $2600 product to use for the rest of its useful life FOR FREE, is really a curious strategy.
Click to expand...

Barry,

First off - ok, I got a little cranky with my choices of adjectives and I apologize for that but I think your point with the target market stuff does not really apply here.

Sure, people pay $5000 for a tripod when they are shooting a multi million dollar movie. They probably have $50,000 to several hundred thousand in equipment sitting on top of that tripod though and the backing and money flow for what they are working on is completely different.

We are not talking about $50,000+ camera productions where the budget is a lot higher. We are talking about the HVX200, 20a, and it's cousins. These are $5000 cameras. While sure, news and media con-gloms with deep pockets use these cameras - it's major base I imagine are independent producers. Even if not it's major base, it's a good share.

To spend $2500 for a little storage on a proprietary device that is sure to plummet in value to the basement (50% of the price of the CAMERA!) is, in my book - insane.

I know what you're saying - you're saying that if you are pulling in enough profit from jobs - it doesn't matter - but the budgets from jobs have a scale - and the HVX and it's cards are not correct to scale right now. The 64g card is WAY out of scale for the jobs one books with the $5000 HVX.

If you are making 20,000 to $100,000 per job I REALLY heavily doubt you are shooting on the HVX200. Not meaning to diss the HVX but come on. Let's not compare apple rates to orange rates.

I book gigs where I make great rates that allow for a lot of profit for my skill, but I also have to be competitive - and even in New York, one of the production capitals of the world - production costs are getting very cut throat right now at all budget scales - especially with the HVXs. They can be rented for $150 a day, and DPs are charging $500 to $1000 a day across the board and many are slashing their prices to pick up work because people are in an 'economy scare don't spend money' mood right now.

I am not trying to be a winy 'cheap guy'. What I am saying is that in the very very real world - the 64g card is WAY overpriced, and I have a strong feeling panny is going to see this when they ONLY sell those cards to deep pocket clients and then sell far less than they projected. The market WILL readjust or eliminate.
 
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We are talking about the HVX200, 20a, and it's cousins. These are $5000 cameras. To spend $2500 for a little storage on a propreitary device that is sure to plummet to the basement eventually (50% of the price of the CAMERA!) is, in my book - insane.
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You're just assuming the only people who use P2 are using the hvx 200 and the hpx 170...

hpx3000-$48,000
hpx2000-$27,000
hpx500-$14,000
spx800-$19,500

Guess what? All use P2 and all are over $5,000.

If you don't want to buy it it's simple....don't. You knew when you first bought your camera that you're using a camera with dvcproHD. It just so happens panasonic was nice enough to let you use dvcproHD in a not-so-expensive camera. They aren't catering to just hvx users.
 
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Remember, those P2 cards are also being used in plenty of HPX-500s, 2000s and 3000s, and those aren't exactly low-budget filmmaking setups.

So on the one hand you could say that P2 cards are overpriced. On the other, you could say that HVX-200 and HPX-170 users get to benefit from using high-end storage solutions (P2) on mid-range camera gear.

And I say this as someone who thinks the 64GB are a bit overpriced (but I wouldn't go so far as to say WAY overpriced).

--SM
 
I knew you guys were going to bring up the pricey cams. I said it to myself as I wrote it.

Ok - point made - HOWEVER - the pricey cams sell a heck of a lot lower numbers than the HVXs, and even including them - the P2 64g is STILL overpriced. Whether you want to include the word 'way' or not (I do) doesn't matter.

And yes, I will vote with my dollars which will not buy the cards, and from the responses on this thread no one at the independent level will.

Even if I have the surplus $$$ to spend which many times I do, I don't want to waste it on something that screams mis priced to my logic - and at this price point it does seem like you are just chucking money into the P2 fire.

I had a Newtek Video Toaster Flyer when it was brand spanking new in 95, and 9 gig hard drives cost $2000 and I popped for a couple of them because the money I made from gigs paid for it - but the huge difference was that that really was the price of storage in the industry at the time. This is NOT the price of storage at the current time, it seems WAY off base from every angle I look at it - this is the weirdo price of proprietary P2.

I'm not saying Panasonic is comprised of evil free mason illuminati lizards who are trying to leech our collective creative souls - I'm just saying it does not compute.

- Blackout -
 
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Blackout said:
Sure, people pay $5000 for a tripod when they are shooting a multi million dollar movie.
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Blackout, you need to work on some higher end productions. Everyone I know in the business that uses anything but a 1/3" prosumer camera owns tripods that cost $5,000.00 on the low end. I shoot mostly with an HPX170 and my tripod cost $3,000.00. Two of my friends with REDs have tripods that cost $12,000.00 (O'Connors). Another friend has the HPX500 sitting on a Sachtler Cine 30, that's a $7,000.00 + head. I've always though that good support costs a minimum of $2,000.00 and up for little cameras and around $5,000.00 or $6,000.00 and up for bigger cameras. Not exorbinant for professional work.

The tripods used on almost all TV shows and features that I work on are called Fisher 10s and 11s. On most Hollywood studio productions, they rarely even use tripods, the cameras usually live on a dolly because it is easier to move around and position. You can't even buy one, they only rent them, but if you could, what would they cost for a Fisher? $50,000.00 to $80,000.00? Just a guess. I don't think that even renting a $500.00 a day dolly to put your camera on is expensive, if it saves you labor and time on set. Believe me, the studios are cheap and if they felt that it was too lavish, you wouldn't see cameras sitting around getting lock-off shots on dollies.

Blackout said:
If you are making 20,000 to $100,000 per job I REALLY heavily doubt you are shooting on the HVX200. Not meaning to diss the HVX but come on. Let's not compare apple rates to orange rates.
Click to expand...

You make a lot of assumptions here. Once again, let's talk reality here. I cannot disclose exact numbers but most of the projects I produce are right in the price range you named above. I just had two DVDs released last week for Paramount's Centennial Collection, the Audrey Hepburn films "Sabrina" and "Roman Holiday". All of the docs and bonus features for both titles were shot entirely on the HVX200 and the budget range is right at the high end of the numbers above.

When a large majority of the budget is going for research, clip and still licensing, music licensing, script writing, VO, honorariums, motion graphics, editing and QC, shooting $100k plus projects on the HVX200 or a camera like it makes total financial sense. The studio is happy with the end product which is delivered on HDCAM SR, I am happy because I can shoot using a small, inconspicuous camera that shoots great images and is easy to travel with, it's a win-win. Yes, bigger cameras look better, but with skill, the HVX makes beautiful images, we even shot a three camera runway fashion show for one of the pieces and it is really quite nice and high-end looking because we had a great crew and DP.

We used to rent Varicams and F950s quite a bit and yes they do look better, but the budgets have shrunk and we cannot afford that so we shoot with HVX200s and EX1s. Production these days is all about doing more with less.

I must agree with Barry, to say that the cost of the 64GB P2 cards is ridiculous depends totally on your point of view. If I owned the 2700, I probably wouldn't think the 64s cost too much. Even though I only own the 170, for me, if I needed the 64, I would buy it. It is costly but being able to shoot for 3 hours of 720 24pN without a card change is priceless for some.

Would be nice if they reduced the price, of course but time and sales will tell if and when they will.

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
Blackout, you need to work on some higher end productions. Everyone I know in the business that uses anything but a 1/3" prosumer camera owns tripods that cost $5,000.00 on the low end. I shoot mostly with an HPX170 and my tripod cost $3,000.00. Two of my friends with REDs have tripods that cost $12,000.00 (O'Connors). Another friend has the HPX500 sitting on a Sachtler Cine 30, that's a $7,000.00 + head. I've always though that good support costs a minimum of $2,000.00 and up for little cameras and around $5,000.00 or $6,000.00 and up for bigger cameras. Not exorbinant for professional work.

The tripods used on almost all TV shows and features that I work on are called Fisher 10s and 11s. On most Hollywood studio productions, they rarely even use tripods, the cameras usually live on a dolly because it is easier to move around and position. You can't even buy one, they only rent them, but if you could, what would they cost for a Fisher? $50,000.00 to $80,000.00? Just a guess. I don't think that even renting a $500.00 a day dolly to put your camera on is expensive, if it saves you labor and time on set. Believe me, the studios are cheap and if they felt that it was too lavish, you wouldn't see cameras sitting around getting lock-off shots on dollies.



You make a lot of assumptions here. Once again, let's talk reality here. I cannot disclose exact numbers but most of the projects I produce are right in the price range you named above. I just had two DVDs released last week for Paramount's Centennial Collection, the Audrey Hepburn films "Sabrina" and "Roman Holiday". All of the docs and bonus features for both titles were shot entirely on the HVX200 and the budget range is right at the high end of the numbers above.

When a large majority of the budget is going for research, clip and still licensing, music licensing, script writing, VO, honorariums, motion graphics, editing and QC, shooting $100k plus projects on the HVX200 or a camera like it makes total financial sense. The studio is happy with the end product which is delivered on HDCAM SR, I am happy because I can shoot using a small, inconspicuous camera that shoots great images and is easy to travel with, it's a win-win. Yes, bigger cameras look better, but with skill, the HVX makes beautiful images, we even shot a three camera runway fashion show for one of the pieces and it is really quite nice and high-end looking because we had a great crew and DP.

We used to rent Varicams and F950s quite a bit and yes they do look better, but the budgets have shrunk and we cannot afford that so we shoot with HVX200s and EX1s. Production these days is all about doing more with less.

I must agree with Barry, to say that the cost of the 64GB P2 cards is ridiculous depends totally on your point of view. If I owned the 2700, I probably wouldn't think the 64s cost too much. Even though I only own the 170, for me, if I needed the 64, I would buy it. It is costly but being able to shoot for 3 hours of 720 24pN without a card change is priceless for some.

Would be nice if they reduced the price, of course but time and sales will tell if and when they will.

Dan
Click to expand...

You tell him Dan!

PS if you keep posting like this I'll be spending money like I have it! (I don't).

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving!

Just PM'd you an application, (it's the blank one:))
 
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I have been weighing my options with all of this and because of a very lengthy shoot I have coming up, I am going to buy one 64 GB card. I had hoped to buy two 32 GB cards, as I don't want to put all of my trust into one card, but the 64 is a better size per cost purchase obviously. I am no fan of the Firestore. I am hoping this card will carry me through just about anything I need to do with the 170. I am certain it will pay for itself pretty quickly. My DVX100 paid for itself probably 10 times over, at least. I am also considering renting the card to a few professional friends of mine as well.

I am honestly hoping this will be the last Panasonic product that I ever buy as I hope RED will offer something that I can migrate to in the future and I really lost just about every bit of respect I had for Panasonic with the slippery details that were used to sell me the 170.
 
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