64GB P2 Card announcment

Justyn said:
. . . If it is indeed just 4 raided SD cards... how much are we paying for the casing and the P2 structure...
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I think a lot of people don't realize (or are forgetting) that on top of everything discussed, the SD cards inside a P2 card are produced to virtually perfect specifications ("error-proof"). This might be the top 1% of the top 1% of SD cards that come out of the factory. P2 is meant to be a bullet-proof, professional recording system so those SD cards theoretically cannot fail. That's good for us and hence good for Panasonic. There's a reason why those SD cards we buy in stores cost $20-$60 or whatever. Kind of like all the crappy tomatoes that get rejected and become ketchup. :)
 
DC said:
I think a lot of people don't realize (or are forgetting) that on top of everything discussed, the SD cards inside a P2 card are produced to virtually perfect specifications ("error-proof"). This might be the top 1% of the top 1% of SD cards that come out of the factory. P2 is meant to be a bullet-proof, professional recording system so those SD cards theoretically cannot fail. That's good for us and hence good for Panasonic. There's a reason why those SD cards we buy in stores cost $20-$60 or whatever. Kind of like all the crappy tomatoes that get rejected and become ketchup. :)
Click to expand...

I've read a post recently about a guys' P2 Card going down, i think it was a 32... so to say that they "cannot fail" is a stretch. Is there a lifetime warranty on these P2 cards??
 
DC, it's hard to forget these informations since every time someone question the price of the new released cards we are reminded by Jan or someone else about the incredible peculiarities and astonishing performance of the memory inside these "James Bond level" products.
The truth is, before tapeless recording there were film and tape and they have to perform at similar levels, there are also other companies producing "error-proof" devices and so forth and so on. I'm not comparing (please!) I'm just trying to put in perspective.
My MacBook Pro has been used and abused for over one year and it has performed flawless, for about the same price of 64GB I can purchase a top of the line 15" screen brand new MacBook Pro.
I find hard to believe that the level of material performance and complexity in these 2 very distinct products are equivalent. Even if we take in consideration the numbers sold by Apple and Panasonic of the respective products.
Anyway, I rant but I'll, hopefully and eventually, get one of these.
 
I was at an event the other evening and I was talking to a filmmaker that had an HPX500 and 11 - 32GB P2 cards and he is getting ready to by another one because he wants "to have a dozen of them" in his bag. He was someone that if you said anything bad about P2 in anyway he would jump in to argue/defend the P2 product.

P2 is in my opinion the most professional video recording media out there. $0.02. :)

Andrew Hoffman
 
btw, I happen to agree with your statement Andrew.
btw2, My rant about card prices stand.

:-)

Alex
 
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Let me clarify a few things . . .

I'm sure we can all agree that every electronic device is in some way subject to fail. P2 is no different and of course open to criticism. There have been very sparse reports of these cards actually failing due to some kind of defect. I believe Panasonic does their best to minimize these P2 failures by using the top SD cards. That's why I said "theoretically."

I'm not going to question the manufacturing costs behind P2 cards. I have no reason to believe (due to lack of evidence) that Panasonic greatly or significantly profits on the sale of each P2 card. It costs what it costs. Panasonic will sell them at whatever price they decide. The market will help them determine this as time goes on.

All that being said, I've already stated that I too am disappointed in the P2 pricing structure with the introduction of the 64GB P2 card. I'm not devastated though. This is just my own personal opinion. I currently have no plans to buy a 64GB card, nor do I really need one. If a gig came up where I did need one, then I'd buy. But for now, I'm content with my 16GB card - I just need to buy one more to have a pair. I recently sold my HVX200 with my original 4GB cards. My HPX170 came with a 16GB card. So that's where I'm at. :)
 
These arguments are all pretty dweeby. P2 is a professional recording medium, just because you're using it in a bottom end camera sort of helps the pricing argument at one level because prices seem out of proprtion to the cameras. However, you can take the cards from your HVX and drop them in a HPX 3k or 3.7K and they will work perfectly well there and in everything in between an HPX 170 and HPX 3700, no if ands or buts.

You might be able to argue that Pansonic should have come out with an open source commodity based memory system for their cameras , but then you're going to be in the world maybe you're using junk for memory or maybe you have the good stuff.

Please keep this in idea in mind when you work as a professional in this bizness. Part of the reason people hire professionals is that they know their stuff, know what they are doing, and can be counted on to deliver results on what ever assignment they sign on for. File based capture is quite frankly a significant advance in our production toolset the way I see it. Tape is lovely, but I'm not loving it as much as I used to. File based capture is where its at for me, and I'm happy that I have dead reliable P2 cards to work with even if they do cost more than some crap I might buy at staples to save some bucks. Qunatify for me if you will, how expensive it is to say to a client, "well my memory card F**ked up and no I don't have the once in a ________time shot that you hired me to shoot for you" then compare that to the cost of the card.
 
Would you have bought a 60 minute tape from Panasonic for 2 grand just because the told you it´s 99% fail proof, you can rewrite it almost for ever, they had soooo much afford to make it in clean rooms and they make almost no money on it?

Thou I can see some of the benefits of P2 vs Firestore, this is getting a religion.

There are 250 GB Solid-State Disks for 700 Bucks (64 GB are only 159.00) out there that outperform any P2 by read 170 MB/s and write 98 MB/s.

Don´t tell me a company like Panasonic would be not able to make a slip in bay for those drives that attaches to the camera if they realy want.

But then they where not able to sell you all those $$$$$ P2 cards.

Frank

For the record: I own quite a bunch of different memory cards and usb sticks - non of them ever failed. Not even the cheap 4GB for 4 Euro scandisc memory sticks that are in constant use over 5 hours every day.
 
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Why isn't everyone complaining about Epson/Canon/HP branded ink jet cartridges?

If this is the rip off thread, why that price about $400 a gallon?
 
Mark Smith said:
... you can take the cards from your HVX and drop them in a HPX 3k or 3.7K and they will work perfectly well there and in everything in between an HPX 170 and HPX 3700, no if ands or buts.
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Great point Mark. It's nice to know, as you move up in camera, you can still utilize your same P2 investment.
Just another tidbit in favor of the P2 cards.

The funny thing is, for those so ticked off at Panasonic, don't buy if you hate it, or the price.
You have every right to lobby Panasonic, but the intensity of discussion between members here sometimes puzzles me. :beer:
 
I read the first couple of pages and jumped to the last couple here, so maybe I missed some good points. But, Mark Smith certainly makes a good point. If I'd spent $45,000 or so for an HPX3000 and had the kind of gigs that required that level of camera, the new card prices probably wouldn't matter to me. Wouldn't they pay for themselves pretty fast if you were up in that level? I just moved to a 170 about a month ago, from a DVX100A that's about 5 years old. I won't be buying a 64 because I don't need it, can't afford it, just doesn't make sense. I already have two 16's and a 32 so likely will **never need any more cards anyway**.
Here's another thought. Since these things don't wear out, does it make sense that Panasonic wouldn't drop prices too much because, unlike automakers, they don't expect you to ever have to replace any of them? It's like the old joke about the sock factory that went out of business because no one ever needed to buy new socks.

Just my thoughts.
 
Barry_Green said:
Trivia question: do you know who it is who sells the FireStore FS-100 in the USA?

Answer: Panasonic. Panasonic is the exclusive distributor for the DVCPRO-HD-enabled FireStore.
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Hehehe. I always love a story with a twist in the end. :)

But can you tell me a reason why we dont have a dock where we can swap those huge-cheap-third party-get-them-everywhere solid state drives in and out?

How cool would that be. You are on the set and ran out of space.
Go to the next computer store and buy a couple of those fast, cheap drives.

No need to bring a laptop and have all the downloading hassle and all.
Just pop them into a swap bay at your editing machine and go.
Would you agree that, if that would happen - Panasonic would sale less P2 and Firestores?

Would be a good move for Panasonic too.
As Jean always says, it seems to be complicated to make them and they don´t make too much profit anyway.
They would sale a big number of those docking bays and a big number of cameras plus keep othervise loyal Panasonic gospel singers like me from jumping the P2 ship.

Frank
 
Postmaster said:
But can you tell me a reason why we dont have a dock where we can swap those huge-cheap-third party-get-them-everywhere solid state drives in and out?
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While I admit that would be cool, I don't know how practical it would be. The dock would have to have all of the P2 controller circuitry built-in. So I'd imagine such a device would be very expensive by itself.

So if it cost $1500 for the dock without any media, the only reason to buy it would be to be able to use super-cheap media. And the only reason that one would do that was if they could be almost 100% sure that the cheap media would not cause them to lose any footage -- a fact which is quite uncertain. For hobbyist and amateur use, it would be great. But for professionals? Not so much.
 
@ Licoln

The dock would cost like the cheapest P2 card (has all the circuitry) minus the memory and maybe a frame and a brace.
I bet it´s doable way under $500.

Super cheap media is only called super cheap compared to P2 prices.
Othervise the prices for quality brand solid state disks are in the normal range of memory chips those days
(wich is super cheap compared to P2)

Regarding failproof:

I already heard of some P2 disasters, including the partial or complete loss of footage.

Question 1. So is there any proof that P2 is more fail safe than any other solid state based medium?

I mean not - do you belive or feel it has to be safe cause you paid so much for it - I mean PROOF! Was there any testing? Solid state drives vs. P2 vs. normal drives?

Oh stupid me, I forgot that normal drives are even more prone to fail. I assume you dump your footage not to a unsafe laptop and delete the precious footage from P2 after that? Do you?

But hey, the big broadcasters use P2 (they probably get better prices too) so they must have done test´s. I would say if P2 was as reliable as tape they would consider it good enough.

Question 2: Have you ever heard of footage loss because of a tape problem?
(I saw quite a bunch of tapes eaten by tape drives and other problems in the last 20 years)

Question 3: Have you ever rejected tape as non professional because you lost footage?

Think of it.


Frank
 
Reality checking for a moment in answer to question 2 & 3 above. There was a time when, and I know many of you might not believe this, tape was the only recording option. Yes I have lost material due to bad tapes, In the early days of betacam there were many different brands of tape on the market and some like 3m were total crap, bad QA, one box would be fine and the next a disaster. Sony even had bad batches of tape with their label on the market. There wasn't any other choice though. It meant that one had to play defense a lot, check play back frequently, and evaluate for recording or tape issues on the spot before moving on.

There is a difference between having the only option you have to record something fail and having your recording fail due to using a consumer or under spec medium.

We're pros folks, which means -NFA- know what tools you need to fulfill the job, show up with those tools and charge accordingly.

Would you go to Home depot and buy some work lights, then show up to your Discovery channel gig to shoot some interviews with said lights? I'd bet you would get to do that once.....
 
So we all agree that we worked for years with a medium that was not 99% failsafe and no one cared or called it unprofessional.

I´m not talking Home Depot, I´m talking the same brand drives you use in your server and editing computers.

You trust those companys to make drives that hold the only copy of your precious footage right?
Why don´t you trust the same companys making drives for recording?
Why would they be suddenley "unpro"?

There are some pretty pro, drive based products out there - if you open them you find Maxtor/Segate/WD, Samsung, andwhatnot. Do they become pro tools cause they sit in a fancy housing with a Sony sticker?

Frank
 
Hi Guys,
Can I pop in here, My only HDD failure was in the 90's when my Avid certified $4.500 9gig SCCI died at a critical point during editing, it cost me about 4 sleepless days to rebuild the TVC's I was producing to a warranty replacement, vision was shoot on Tape in those days, and had to be re injested and re edited, you know how it goes.
This Avid HDD was a top of the line Seagate.
Since then now that the technology has improved I use raided drives with P2, and have had no failures with raid sets (as yet).
I trust HDD's 99%, but, I allways make a copy to another drive if the project is critical to my bussiness, that's just good workflow.:thumbup:

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
 
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