It's certainly isn't an issue of pricing, because SxS cards aren't significantly less expensive.
SxS 32 GB cards are about 8% or $120 less expensive than p2 cards.
64 GB SxS cards I've not seen at all.
And let's not get into 35 mbps versus 100 mbps.
64GB P2 Card announcment
- Thread starter Spec-Comm
- Start date
It's certainly isn't an issue of pricing, because SxS cards aren't significantly less expensive.
SxS 32 GB cards are about 8% or $120 less expensive than p2 cards.
64 GB SxS cards I've not seen at all.
And let's not get into 35 mbps versus 100 mbps.
Steve Smull
Active member
True, and it's only fair to acknowledge that. The fact that we finally HAVE a 64 Gb option is fantastic. When you consider it's roughly the price of a crusty old 60 Gb P2 Store it doesn't look terrible in that context.
What I'm seeing is the Event Horizon. It's not in the future any more. The ability for event shooters to produce quality HD footage with inexpensive media is already here, although with constraints well known to the type of folks who read this forum. I'm not ready to lose I-frame or 4:2:2 or deal with AVCHD headaches in post just to save on media, but a lot of people are.
You just KNOW huge amounts of money are being invested in technology aimed squarely at producing acceptable commercial results with media that will be priced in two digit amounts, not four. In 10 years you won't be able to get five bucks for a P2 card at your garage sale. No one wants to be a sucker and pay over two thousand dollars for one today unless its making a solid return on investment in the short term so we're all getting by with less cards than we'd like to own.... for now.
A few thoughts-
1) I bought my HVX back when the 4GB cards were $600 or so. One of my major factors for purchasing was the assumption that P2 prices would be tied to moore's law, and drop in a similar fashion. Clearly this has not been the case. Each time a new larger size comes out, I cross my fingers and am let down.
2) I've rented an EX1 and if there was no Red on the horizon I'd sell my HVX today and get one. It solves a lot of the problems I have with the HVX.
3) There is an alternative to the Firestore coming soon. I'm going to be beta testing it in a month or so.
4) For me, I keep dragging my feed on P2 purchases because I don't see sticking with them in a year or 2. I bet a lot of people have the same thought, thus less demand keeps prices high.
1) I bought my HVX back when the 4GB cards were $600 or so. One of my major factors for purchasing was the assumption that P2 prices would be tied to moore's law, and drop in a similar fashion. Clearly this has not been the case. Each time a new larger size comes out, I cross my fingers and am let down.
2) I've rented an EX1 and if there was no Red on the horizon I'd sell my HVX today and get one. It solves a lot of the problems I have with the HVX.
3) There is an alternative to the Firestore coming soon. I'm going to be beta testing it in a month or so.
4) For me, I keep dragging my feed on P2 purchases because I don't see sticking with them in a year or 2. I bet a lot of people have the same thought, thus less demand keeps prices high.
TwistedLincoln
Veteran
People who complaining about P2 prices seem to fall into one of three categories:
1) They don't own a camera that uses P2, and have no interest because of the expense.
My question to such people: Why do you care how much P2 cards cost if you don't even have a camera that uses them? Go whine elsewhere.
2) They own a P2 camera, and are upset due to the high cost or percieved low value of P2 cards.
My question to such people: Why did you buy a P2 camera then? You bought your camera knowing what P2 cost at the time. Nothing has changed since then, other than the fact that you can perhaps get a larger card for the same price. It's not like P2 prices have ever gone up.
3) You own a P2 camera, can afford to buy P2 cards, but think that Panasonic is taking advantage of the fact that you are willing to pay so much for the cards, and is therefore making excessive profits (and must be evil).
My question to such people: Who cares how much Panasonic makes or doesn't make off P2 cards? If they are worth it to you, buy them. If not, don't. But don't buy them and then whine that they should have cost less.
The P2 vs other media is a valid debate to have. But there are threads for that. Lots of them. 7 pages of people saying "I wish 64gb cards were cheaper" isn't going to solve anything.
If you really want to sell your camera because the prices of P2 cards haven't fallen as much as you'd hoped, then you really shouldn't have bought the thing in the first place -- buying a camera relying on the possibility that media prices might drasticly fall in the future is foolish.
1) They don't own a camera that uses P2, and have no interest because of the expense.
My question to such people: Why do you care how much P2 cards cost if you don't even have a camera that uses them? Go whine elsewhere.
2) They own a P2 camera, and are upset due to the high cost or percieved low value of P2 cards.
My question to such people: Why did you buy a P2 camera then? You bought your camera knowing what P2 cost at the time. Nothing has changed since then, other than the fact that you can perhaps get a larger card for the same price. It's not like P2 prices have ever gone up.
3) You own a P2 camera, can afford to buy P2 cards, but think that Panasonic is taking advantage of the fact that you are willing to pay so much for the cards, and is therefore making excessive profits (and must be evil).
My question to such people: Who cares how much Panasonic makes or doesn't make off P2 cards? If they are worth it to you, buy them. If not, don't. But don't buy them and then whine that they should have cost less.
The P2 vs other media is a valid debate to have. But there are threads for that. Lots of them. 7 pages of people saying "I wish 64gb cards were cheaper" isn't going to solve anything.
If you really want to sell your camera because the prices of P2 cards haven't fallen as much as you'd hoped, then you really shouldn't have bought the thing in the first place -- buying a camera relying on the possibility that media prices might drasticly fall in the future is foolish.
Steve Smull
Active member
Predicting the inevitable decrease of prices on electronics is reliable; predicting the timing is not. I think it is completely reasonable to purchase a device based on the assumption that peripherals for it will become priced in a way that increases its utility over time. It is for each of us to determine how much time is reasonable to wait in light of emerging competitive technologies drawing our attention- as the should, and as they will.
Justyn
Veteran
Everyone here did buy with the hope that other manufacturers were going to make them.. that their price would drop as marketshare took off.. but that hasn't happened. We were willing to accept the high cost and low-record times because a lot of us bought this camera in 96 like I did. I was so happy with the end results that the process of how it got there didn't bother me. Now that there's other things on the market that makes shooting a lot less painful, then that's reason enough to consider them.. and I just did and probably not the only one.
I didn't invest too heavily in P2, other than a recent card that paid itself off on the first job.. so I'm free to do whatever I want from here on out. I just can't justify paying as much for a card as a lot of people pay for an entire camera...
The EX1 also does shoot on cheap SD cards too. I think that the other model they have that 7 something, is a good option as well. I just don't want to have to pay Gas company prices... when there's something else that will do the trick... Offloading cards and backing things up in the field isn't going to fly for me much more... and I don't have enough cash to buy 4 x32 gig cards just to get through a normal shooting day! Clients aren't too understanding when you have to offload.. no matter how dilligent you are, there's times when cards fill up and you have to wait. That's not for me anymore...
I didn't invest too heavily in P2, other than a recent card that paid itself off on the first job.. so I'm free to do whatever I want from here on out. I just can't justify paying as much for a card as a lot of people pay for an entire camera...
The EX1 also does shoot on cheap SD cards too. I think that the other model they have that 7 something, is a good option as well. I just don't want to have to pay Gas company prices... when there's something else that will do the trick... Offloading cards and backing things up in the field isn't going to fly for me much more... and I don't have enough cash to buy 4 x32 gig cards just to get through a normal shooting day! Clients aren't too understanding when you have to offload.. no matter how dilligent you are, there's times when cards fill up and you have to wait. That's not for me anymore...
MARK BARRON
Member
LAST I REMEMBER, P2 PRICES DROPPED AS NEW ONES ARRIVED. SO BEING DISAPPOINTED IS DIFFERENT THAN COMPLAINING. AGAIN HMC100 HAS A VERY CHEAP WAY OF MAKING HD AND A BETTER OPTION THAN WHAT I PAID FOR THE HVX200 and two 16g p2. A SOLUTION WOULD BE TO IMPLEMENT THE AVCHD CODEC TO RECORD ON P2 CAMERAS AS A FIRMWARE UPDATE. IS IT POSSIBLE, PROBABLY. WILL PANASONIC DO IT, PROBABLY NOT. AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S ABOUT MONEY, BUT NOT EVERYONE IN THIS FORUM WANTS TO ACCEPT THAT PANASONIC IS NOT PERFECT, AND YES, THERE ARE OTHER ALTERNATIVES OUT THERE. I'D RATHER CALL THEM OUT, THAN TO LET THEM DO WHATEVER THEY WANT BECAUSE I LIKE THEIR PRODUCTS.
IF PANASONIC CAN GIVE US THE OPTION OF RECORDING AVCHD ON P2 CAMERAS, I WOULD UNDERSTAND THEIR CURRENT PRICE. NOW THAT WOULD BE FAIR.
IF PANASONIC CAN GIVE US THE OPTION OF RECORDING AVCHD ON P2 CAMERAS, I WOULD UNDERSTAND THEIR CURRENT PRICE. NOW THAT WOULD BE FAIR.
Steve Smull
Active member
I thought Panasonic would by now be acknowledging that PCMCIA is a dead form factor by reducing the price of media in order to hang on to its user base until the next form factor inevitably takes over.
A show of hands, how many of you still use Zip disks. How many even remember Syquest or Bernoulli. P2 absolutely has to be on the way out because PCMCIA has already been a legacy interface in the industry for several years. Asking $2600 for a single piece of media with an obsolete interface is.... bold.
A show of hands, how many of you still use Zip disks. How many even remember Syquest or Bernoulli. P2 absolutely has to be on the way out because PCMCIA has already been a legacy interface in the industry for several years. Asking $2600 for a single piece of media with an obsolete interface is.... bold.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Bold? Perhaps, but it's also what they've been doing for the last 4 years, and it's led to them capturing about 80% of the broadcast tapeless market, so...
The price of the 64GB is not out of line with what we were expecting, and it does represent a drop per GB from $50/GB (32GB card) down to $40/GB (64GB card). So at least it is somewhat of a price drop.
But what's with the 16 and 32 staying the same price? That's the real head-scratcher for me. I would have expected the 16 to come down significantly since it's been the same price for 18 months now.
The price of the 64GB is not out of line with what we were expecting, and it does represent a drop per GB from $50/GB (32GB card) down to $40/GB (64GB card). So at least it is somewhat of a price drop.
But what's with the 16 and 32 staying the same price? That's the real head-scratcher for me. I would have expected the 16 to come down significantly since it's been the same price for 18 months now.
Say as you will.... but how can a 64g p2 card cost more than the new mac book pro? Stop and think off all the pieces, details and all the complexity that goes into the new laptop compared to a 64 gig storage device.
For all of you who think $2600 is a deal for the p2 card,... have you rushed out there and bought one? If not... then I wonder why.....
For all of you who think $2600 is a deal for the p2 card,... have you rushed out there and bought one? If not... then I wonder why.....
Barry_Green
Moderator
Please let's not get into this tired argument again of how much manufactured items cost. Forget the macbook pro, look at a powerful windows laptop that you can get for $600... how can a P2 card *possibly* cost more than that laptop? Look into economies of scale and you'll find out really quickly. Panasonic might make a thousand 64GB cards in the next year; Compaq might make TEN MILLION $600 laptops in that same year. Complexity has little to do with it, a hand-assembled low-production-run item is going to cost a lot more than a high-volume product any day.
Unless someone is an electronics manufacturer, they have no idea what costs a lot and what doesn't when it comes to manufacturing electronic devices.
The market will speak. If 64GB cards are overpriced for their target market (which is not, by the way, DVXusers by and large) then they won't sell and they'll have to either consider lowering their prices or reducing their manufacturing.
Those who want cheap memory should be looking at the HMC150, which records on 8GB SD cards that you can already buy for like $15. Those who want/need the P2 workflow are the ones the 64GB P2 card is targeted at.
I still want to see a substantial price drop on the 16GB card; to me that's the real sweet spot of the P2 workflow.
Unless someone is an electronics manufacturer, they have no idea what costs a lot and what doesn't when it comes to manufacturing electronic devices.
The market will speak. If 64GB cards are overpriced for their target market (which is not, by the way, DVXusers by and large) then they won't sell and they'll have to either consider lowering their prices or reducing their manufacturing.
Those who want cheap memory should be looking at the HMC150, which records on 8GB SD cards that you can already buy for like $15. Those who want/need the P2 workflow are the ones the 64GB P2 card is targeted at.
I still want to see a substantial price drop on the 16GB card; to me that's the real sweet spot of the P2 workflow.
Jay Rodriguez
Coffee Member
Werd! I'd like to scoop a 32GB card for a little cheaper too though. :thumbup:
Michael T
Well-known member
In April Panasonic announced that it had delivered over 80,000 P2 card. Thats a lot of cards and the technology is pretty much the same from one size to another except for the change of speed. It should follow the same as hardrives with size increase. When we go to a larger size it doesn't mean that its a larger price. 1 terrabyte drives cost the same as a 500 gig did a few months ago. I know a lot of producers in this industry and they don't get the price not dropping. Panasonic will lose market share because of the economy dropping and people wanting to find less expensive formats to shoot in unless they become competitive. We can only hope they see the light with this or maybe they just don't care because they have the market share they want.
Green Hornet
Veteran
For me, i liked when Panasonic was the only game in town for digital recording, now they are not. We jumped in, and bought these cameras are record rates.
We embraced the P2 format.
We paid the price to keep Panasonic in the lead.
The event guys had to learn to off load, or bring a side kick. (or turn down jobs).
...we have waited for Panasonic to help us help them.
I am not mad at what ever the price is, or will be.
..but it is near time to buy another camera.
Looking at the competition, I am liking full raster images, even on cheap cameras like the canon hf100.
I am liking less expensive cards that can cary me all day (an ex1 hacked to use SD cards).
I really really like Panasonic, I just need to know why I would or should buy again when considering what else is out there.
AS others have said, P2 slots are very hard to find these days, so the way I see it,
Panasonic needs to come out with a really inexpensive reader, and bait us with cheap P2 cards.
If the pricing stays at the rate that it is, I see users jumping ship like the housing market going bust.
Afterall "the look" only goes so far...then you have to take her home to mom.
We embraced the P2 format.
We paid the price to keep Panasonic in the lead.
The event guys had to learn to off load, or bring a side kick. (or turn down jobs).
...we have waited for Panasonic to help us help them.
I am not mad at what ever the price is, or will be.
..but it is near time to buy another camera.
Looking at the competition, I am liking full raster images, even on cheap cameras like the canon hf100.
I am liking less expensive cards that can cary me all day (an ex1 hacked to use SD cards).
I really really like Panasonic, I just need to know why I would or should buy again when considering what else is out there.
AS others have said, P2 slots are very hard to find these days, so the way I see it,
Panasonic needs to come out with a really inexpensive reader, and bait us with cheap P2 cards.
If the pricing stays at the rate that it is, I see users jumping ship like the housing market going bust.
Afterall "the look" only goes so far...then you have to take her home to mom.
Stephen Mick
Totally Usable
I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that I won't be buying any at that price.
shorelinedigital
Active member
I think making this statement is rather bold. I love this stuff.....a gigundo company like Panasonic with a wildly successful product is going to beg your forgiveness for introducing a "dead" product by giving it to you at a discount?
I like what TwistedLincoln had to say above. Personally If you can't recover the cost of a 64GB card in a dayrate or two something's wrong. It's pure profit after that......and I'm not even going to get into the ease of workflow and the ability to work with DVCProHD effectively and efficiently.
If I was to get caught up in the minutia of complaining about 64 vs. 32 vs. 16 GB I'd go crazy. I routinely use 16GBs because they fit my workflow perfectly. Some will need 64's and wuill need to charge for it. I don't get the problem. And yes I purchased my 200 a few years ago and worked with expensive 4GB cards.....and made money doing it.
Taking a look at the broadcast industry; news and entertainment, P2 is pretty entrenched and it's here for a long, long time. Nothing's obsolete until it's unsupported and I can still use my P2 cards just about anywhere.
I respect your opinion on this matter,... but it's statements like this that will keep the price at $2600 rather than push it down.
Barry_Green
Moderator
If you think that I, or the membership of DVXUser, are the ones who set the price for P2 cards, you give us all way too much credit.
ABC, NBC, the BBC, the Australian ABC, New Delhi TV, the Weather Channel, Canal+, and the thousand other broadcasters and networks and stations are the ones who are going to be buying those 64GB cards, and their paying or balking at the prices will be the factor that dictates to Panasonic whether they're charging the right price or not.
I don't know the numbers, but I would bet that 80% or more of the 64GB cards are going to go to that group.
Very few of us will want or need 64GB cards; I have a 16 and an 8 and I've been using P2 for three years now. And I only really have the 16 because I got it free with my HPX170; prior to that I had an 8 and two 4's and that was pretty much enough. Ongoing media cost is simply not a factor for most of us; one or two cards is all someone really needs for most work. And even then, at least in the USA, we get one card for free (or, if buying an HPX500, you get two cards for free). And if you're in business, a P2 card will usually pay for itself in one or two jobs, and then remain "free" for the remaining useful life of the format.
In the world of P2 pricing, we're the tiniest little segment of the market. The individual end users, the tiny production companies, we're not the ones who dictate what the pricing will be. It's guys like the New York Film Academy buying a hundred cameras at a time, or the Weather Channel buying 82 in their first round, or Fox News, Fox Business, and Fox Broadcasting who's committed entirely to solely P2, or the BBC who is moving all Factual Studios productions to P2, who are going to be dictating the pricing for cards in the future.
ABC, NBC, the BBC, the Australian ABC, New Delhi TV, the Weather Channel, Canal+, and the thousand other broadcasters and networks and stations are the ones who are going to be buying those 64GB cards, and their paying or balking at the prices will be the factor that dictates to Panasonic whether they're charging the right price or not.
I don't know the numbers, but I would bet that 80% or more of the 64GB cards are going to go to that group.
Very few of us will want or need 64GB cards; I have a 16 and an 8 and I've been using P2 for three years now. And I only really have the 16 because I got it free with my HPX170; prior to that I had an 8 and two 4's and that was pretty much enough. Ongoing media cost is simply not a factor for most of us; one or two cards is all someone really needs for most work. And even then, at least in the USA, we get one card for free (or, if buying an HPX500, you get two cards for free). And if you're in business, a P2 card will usually pay for itself in one or two jobs, and then remain "free" for the remaining useful life of the format.
In the world of P2 pricing, we're the tiniest little segment of the market. The individual end users, the tiny production companies, we're not the ones who dictate what the pricing will be. It's guys like the New York Film Academy buying a hundred cameras at a time, or the Weather Channel buying 82 in their first round, or Fox News, Fox Business, and Fox Broadcasting who's committed entirely to solely P2, or the BBC who is moving all Factual Studios productions to P2, who are going to be dictating the pricing for cards in the future.
Last edited:
shorelinedigital
Active member
What do you for double the capacity with each card release?
About 1 year ago the 32GB cards were released and were projected in September of 07 to be released at $1800....