Canon XH-A2/XH-G2

For me, the XHA1 is the perfect camera. I need to archive large amounts of footage, and tape really is the best way to do it. When I was comparing different models, I didn't even consider the HVX200 simply because P2 is ridiculously priced. Tape is cheap, and 1080/24f footage is unbelievably great. I'm sure that the new HMC150, or the Scarlet will be great for lots of people, but I personally don't want a part of it.
 
OSV said:
... i'm not sure what you mean by shrinking the hd result in the timeline? it sounds like you are going to sd before the edit is finalized.
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Simply edit in HD and rendering out as SD doesn't get you that sharp result. I've ran extensive tests and the best way to downrezz is the bring the locked HD project file into an SD project and manually shrink the clip, then render out as SD.
 
Huy Vu said:
Simply edit in HD and rendering out as SD doesn't get you that sharp result. I've ran extensive tests and the best way to downrezz is the bring the locked HD project file into an SD project and manually shrink the clip, then render out as SD.
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Sounds tedious, which NLE do you use?
 
Huy Vu said:
Simply edit in HD and rendering out as SD doesn't get you that sharp result. I've ran extensive tests and the best way to downrezz is the bring the locked HD project file into an SD project and manually shrink the clip, then render out as SD.
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That's interesting that you say the best way (with at least Premiere Pro) for a SD DVD with HDV source footage is to use a SD project.

So with your canon XH-A1, for a SD DVD deliverable, do you prefer or generally shoot SD or HD? Or to get the best quality, 1) shoot HD. 2) Then say you have a project with 50 clips (for example), do you create a SD Premiere Pro 720x480 project, import the 50 HDV clips in, then manually scale each HDV clip in the SD sequence as you need them?

I'm curious because I may try that. Also, is there a way in Premiere Pro where you had a HDV 1440x1080 project with a number of sequences and edits, and convert that project into a SD project (somehow preserving all of the edits)?

Thanks,
Allan
 
Huy Vu said:
Simply edit in HD and rendering out as SD doesn't get you that sharp result. I've ran extensive tests and the best way to downrezz is the bring the locked HD project file into an SD project and manually shrink the clip, then render out as SD.
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i don't think that is an option with sony vegas, so i'm having problems understanding the concept... it almost sounds like the project is getting rendered twice? you were already in the cineform codec to begin with(?)

i did run some avchd test clips out from the vegas timeline to procoder, using the satish frameserver, encoding an sd dvd, and it wasn't real impressive, the interlacing didn't appear quite right, but i'm still experimenting.
 
allantab said:
I'm curious because I may try that. Also, is there a way in Premiere Pro where you had a HDV 1440x1080 project with a number of sequences and edits, and convert that project into a SD project (somehow preserving all of the edits)?

Thanks,
Allan
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Start an SD project and import your HD project.

Usually I just export the HD footage or - edit to an SD avi file or a quicktime file.Looks pretty sweet.
 
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If Canon were to announce an XH-A2 today, then I would want it to be able to do 24mbps AVC-HD, as well as retain the HDV and DV capabilities that the A1 already does so well. Now the reason for this is that if you shoot weddings and events like I do, you might notice that whoever you are shooting for will 90% of the time want you to just give them tapes and the footage to be shot in SD. A lot of the companies in my area, even if they offer HD weddings, still do the majority of their work in 4x3 or 16x9 DV. The reason for this is that Blu-ray still hasn't taken off like DVD did back in the beginning of this decade. In 2-3 years if Blu-ray takes off, then yeah, we'll all be shooting and delivering in some form of HD. Until then, if you make money with your camera, it is extremely relieving to know that you have the SD capabilities built into the camera.

This is one of the major faults I find with the HMC-150. Yes it does allow you to output SD from the cam, and you can always downconvert after editing, but the problem for event shooters arises when you need to just hand off the tapes to the client. I think that Panasonic should have kept a DV tape drive in it in addition to the AVC-HD capabilities. This would basically give one a 16x9 capable DVX and an HD cam in one, sort of like a lower-priced, lighter weight HVX. Still perfect for filmmaking but also pretty foolproof for event shooters as well.

Another problem, at least right now, with an AVC-HD-only camera is that the various NLE's are not all up to speed on AVC-HD just yet. You might end up transcoding, which negates the time savings of AVC-HD file transfer convenience. If a camera had both AVC-HD and HDV, then that gives us a choice depending on what kind of project and deadline we are under.

As for Canon dropping the XL line, I'm feeling that things are going to be very interesting in the next 6 months to a year due to two things:

1) RED's Scarlet being priced at $3,000 should have already sent Panasonic, Sony, Canon, and JVC scrambling to the R&D labs to counter strike.

2) The new Nikon D90's D-movie mode being able to shoot 720p HD at 24fps with no real price jump from what the D90 would have been sold at if it didn't have a video function.
Then again, who knows, this could be a really nice fluke and none of the competing companies will come out with anything like this.

The fact that Canon has both successful D-SLR and pro/prosumer HD video camera lines says to me that they could really get something out there that would put them at a huge advantage against cameras like the HMC-150 or EX-1, and maybe even compete against Scarlet. I mean of all companies, if Nikon has the first 35mm mount video camera below $10,000, hell, below $2,000 really -- then that means Canon might be able to give us a full-frame CMOS or CCD sensor and EOS mount on an A2 or some kind of new line of cameras. Doesn't mean it will happen, but I say why not?
 
As long as the recording media stays affordable, I see no problems for tapeless cameras and events shooters.
I could also live with handing out a 80$ SD, CF or similar cards, yes more expensive than DV tape, but the clients will pay this without asking and thank me for not making them capture tapes...
Or i´ll just copy it to a HDD at the end of a day and hand aout the HDD...
Hm, sounds just like my P2 workflow, just at a 10th of the price hehehe
 
OSV said:
i don't think that is an option with sony vegas, so i'm having problems understanding the concept... it almost sounds like the project is getting rendered twice? you were already in the cineform codec to begin with(?)
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No, it's just rendered once. I'm simply importing one project into another.
 
Spartacus said:
As long as the recording media stays affordable, I see no problems for tapeless cameras and events shooters.
I could also live with handing out a 80$ SD, CF or similar cards, yes more expensive than DV tape, but the clients will pay this without asking and thank me for not making them capture tapes...
Or i´ll just copy it to a HDD at the end of a day and hand aout the HDD...
Hm, sounds just like my P2 workflow, just at a 10th of the price hehehe
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Good points, and I think that it will eventually get there. Believe me, I am not saying we should stay with tape forever. I would rather switch to AVC-HD or some form of tapeless for events, but can't just yet. I just think that in the case of Canon, who already support HDV, it wouldn't make sense to just drop tape yet, but give us the AVC-HD SD card slot in addition to the tape drive for those that want and or need one type or both.

Oh well. We'll see eventually. First CES then NAB.
 
I think Canon will always have the XL line, because they already have a HUGE set of lenses available for the format and HD lenses to boot. So getting rid of that line would be foolish. It would be better to keep the format (which some people love) and turn it into tapeless.

Canon has the best implementation of the HDV codec, so I'm a little stoked to see what they can do in the tapeless arena.

They'll make a nice turnover into tapeless I think, and maybe they'll be able to adapt a current technology to do it. My guess is the same cards the EX1 uses...thats my bet.
 
KyleProhaska said:
I think Canon will always have the XL line, because they already have a HUGE set of lenses available for the format and HD lenses to boot. So getting rid of that line would be foolish. It would be better to keep the format (which some people love) and turn it into tapeless.
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They need to jump to at least 1/2" chips though, 1/3" just won´t cut it no more in the long run... And there are enough Canon 1/2" lenses already...

KyleProhaska said:
Canon has the best implementation of the HDV codec, so I'm a little stoked to see what they can do in the tapeless arena.

They'll make a nice turnover into tapeless I think, and maybe they'll be able to adapt a current technology to do it. My guess is the same cards the EX1 uses...thats my bet.
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This would be a desaster for Canon, they´ve always been "the other guys", they don´t sell like Sony or Panasonic (well they could selll more than JVC...).
IMHO they´ll have to use available storage solutions like SD or CF cards to gain some ground. The cost of the "XL3" could be as high as the EX3, but with a great Canon stock HD lens and cheap SSD storage many would take the plunge...
(throw in AVCHDintra and you´ll have winner...)
 
Spartacus said:
They need to jump to at least 1/2" chips though, 1/3" just won´t cut it no more in the long run... And there are enough Canon 1/2" lenses already...
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I say just pass 1/2" and 2/3" by if possible and do a single CMOS or CCD full frame sensor with interchangeable 35mm lens mount like Nikon is doing on the D90 SLR video mode, but with AVC-HD. The bonus would be that you could get some good still images too. At this rate with so many getting a 35mm DOF adapter anyway, it just makes sense. For low light event work like a wedding or concert, then the full frame sensor will be much better in low light, plus you'll have the choice of mounting a fast lens on the cam if needed for those situations. Just think how nice it would be if you didn't have to use much light at a wedding reception if you had a nice fast lens.

I think this would be a huge advantage to a company like Canon. It would encourage those who do both photography and video to stick with them for both and would make buying a larger arsenal of lenses a priority since you can use them on both an SLR and an HD video camera.

I say if the D-SLR's start to get comparable or equal quality HD video modes soon and the same tech is able to be applied to a dedicated HD video camera, and they (meaning not just Canon but Sony, Panasonic, etc.) shun the indy filmmakers and videographers by sticking with the same old fixed lens 1/3 sensors, then they will just be giving us all the more reasons to go to RED and the Scarlet.
 
I have a tendency to agree with Nektonic here. If you step back and take a look at the entire Canon business you see that they possess all the components necessary to create a camera that can challenge RED, or at the very least mop the entire HD market.

1. They already have a huge DSLR lens arsenal.
2. They could easily use their DSLR mount on a video system for convenient interoperability.
3. They already have tight relationships with chip foundries. 2K CMOS would be a good start. 4K a generation or two later.
4. RED has already paved the way to prove the market is viable (something Canon has historically been hesitant to do themselves).
5. They already have a loyal user base who'd love to stick with Canon over "switching" to our friends in Irvine.
6. Plus they have a huge engineering team in Japan that could rival RED in terms of ergonomics and functionality.

Will they do it? Would they be this daring? Somehow I doubt they would. But man it would send shockwaves throughout the entire industry/community if they stepped and challenged RED's impending dominance. They got everything in front of them already pre-developed. They've got the R&D dollars. They just need the will to do it.
 
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1+2: they also have a huge ENG/HD lens arsenal.
OK, this is all guessing here, but after Sony announcing another HDV camorder (FX1000), maybe it´s still too early to expect a new camera concept from Canon.
And even if they come up with sth new in the next 6 months, my guess is, they´ll rather go to rival the EX3 than the Scarlet.
 
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