Bad Client or my fault?

zergtherobot said:
We did have an agreement to shoot some of the classic posed shots. They were incredibly disorganised and left them until 20 minuts before sunset. We had to rush through them with the sun setting directly into their face. There was no real prep time. I had seen the location for all of 20 minutes the day before. The wedding itself was very casual and laid back, and so was the wedding party, so it was hard to get anything serious done. Their response to alot of things was: "Do your thing"...Okay. I did my thing, I presented them with photos that I would have graciously paid $1000 dollars for if it were my wedding. Throughout the process we sat down twice before print to make sure everything was ok, the sessions were filled with awww, look at that, oh my god, thats so sweet etc etc. At one point they even offered to pay more. Then I get the photos printed and they hate the pictures? Not only that, "everyone" thinks they are crap. Coming from a community with a population of about 5 thousand this is an issue which has pretty much forced me out of the commercial photography business.

Lesson learned.

If the day comes that I do decide to do another wedding, its going to have written contracts. This is turning out to be a nightmare.
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This was an interesting thread to read. I can really feel the annoyance with flip-flopping clients because I've had that happen on music videos, too. The first screening is usually, "Wow, dude that was rockin'! Yeah badass man, loved it, especially the part where..." Then a few days later, "Yeah everyone is saying that one shot, you know the shot where... yeah it's not good, it has to go. I asked all of my friends and they don't like it." Even though we will have talked about that shot before and he loved it, everyone loved it, now all of the sudden I'm supposed to believe that EVERY friend this person has not only watched the video but commented on that same shot. I don't believe "my friends all..." statements anymore, at all. I will literally at this point be like, "I really don't care what your friends think, I'm sorry, they neither play music nor make movies, and their opinions honestly aren't of value in this discussion." Otherwise it's just counter-productive, especially when in the cases I'm discussing I funded the music videos so all creative decisions were in fact 100% mine anyway. But, being a professional, I always strive to make "the client" happy, too, even when the suggestions are ridiculous and stupid.

I have to say after the work I've done thus far, corporate videos, training video, music videos, etc., it would be really fun to make a short where I'm writer-director-producer and whatever I say goes. There is no second opinion, no client, no meddling in my creative vision. That's the problem with work-for-hire, because you have to care about what the client says and give them what they want. Unless you're a huge name director, then they hire you and they like it or you just don't give a crap and you move on to your next $10,000/day gig, haha.

Honestly, I know there are a lot of shooters on DVX User, so I'm not trying to offend them because you gotta do what you gotta do, but to me weddings are in line with porn. I wouldn't do either one and I feel that both take down your class and cheapen your name. You will always then be a guy who started filming weddings. I'd rather just rent out my equipment and make money that way, if I need a few bucks, because that's not going to follow me around. Even if I was a cameraman, I wouldn't film weddings, and as a company I won't be involved in them because it's not filmmaking and because of issues like this. Plus, I hate weddings, I think marriage is a horrible contract that's especially bad and unfair to guys, so why would I want to be around that misery all of the time?

Also that bride, wow, if that was my wife I'd honestly consider suicide. Till death do us part wouldn't be such a long horizon, after all. Good god.
 
That was a rather bleak comment, Jonathan.

Haha!

I, personally am doing weddings so I can afford gear. But I am scared of that "cheapening" that you speak of.
 
Just judging from the first thumbnail you posted, I can understand why she didn't like the pic. She is overweight to begin with, in a pretty gown that exposes a lot. It just isn't a flattering picture, but it really isn't all your fault. You work with what you have, and she wants what she imagines. Unfortunate but true, which is why weddings are hard sometimes. I personally try and avoid them at all costs.
 
Just be glad it's not a wedding video. Sounds like a nightmare client indeed and one of the main reasons to get contracts and set up a payment plan. Personally when i shoot weddings I have all of the terms set out, especially my style of shooting and editing (I only do 4 weddings per year, my limit of sanity) and set up the deposits so there is one fee (50% upfront) then 25% on the day (takes care of additional cameras and assistants) and the remainder when the first edit is received on DVD and approved.

Too many brides do suffer from the doubts of friends who fail to appreciate the artistic side of things especially if they're expecting to see the same kind of pictures that everyone else has gotten. particularly if they themselves have had the same kind of pictures.

your client sat with you and by their comments they approved what you were doing so you were getting the go-ahead to do iit as you liked. Not once during that time did they say "hey, we're not comfortable with this". That would have triggered your more conservative mode and you could have made an adjustment to your style and given appropriate instructions. THat's probably something you shoul dalso state in your scontracts and come right out and state when you meet the clients: they will have a chance to review and if they don't like the shots at the time then it needs to be said.

It will save any problems later on down the line like you're having now.

By the way, love your shots. Raise your prices and they'll respect you more. Funny how that goes.
 
You're in a tough situation, Zerg.

Personally, I think you've done everything right thus far. You did what you said you'd do. You delivered on your style. But, unfortunately, that's not what they wanted in the end. They may have been influenced by family, friends, or whatever.

But they're your client. You tried to educate them, but they want something else now. So you suck it up and be the tool you are. That's why they're paying you. That's the sad reality.

Good luck, man.
 
i have seen some wedding shooters post the best 300/400 shots on there web site .they give a code to the client and they pic the top 150 or so . then you work on the one they pic . then you can blame bridezilla . all done on line. don,t even have to talk to the bride. then they can pic 70 to be put in a wedding book. no such complaint as artistic differences. they can see the last 4 wedding online before they book . brideziila can,t say it is not what i wanted.
 
For one thing, i don't do anything without a formal, written contract. The contract that i use states that any complaints about the finished DVD (I do video) will be communicated to me within a week of them receiving the product. It's either acceptable or it isn't. It shouldn't take months to figure it out. Of course, your emerging reputation is at stake. You may just have to sit down with them and give it the extra time and effort to assure their satisfaction. Hopefully that will be possible.
I read comments above that made me think of this as well. With the exception of the wedding planner, if the couple have one, the photographer pretty much runs the day. I don't think I exaggerate when I say he or she is quite firm in directing the action in an effort to get the necessary shots.
It sounds to me like another photographer they met well down the road got their feathers all ruffled as bragged about how he was God's gift. Sometimes it's sincere concern but many times it's just utter arrogance.
Personally, i didn't charge for my first few gigs. It was understood that i was new and i would do my best but no guarantee was promised or implied. That was a long time ago but i did a reasonably admirable job and my "clients" got an acceptable tape while i got the all important experience.
 
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this is why i avoid doing wedding videos (and hopefully never have to), the one moment they like it, it doesn't matter if you stand were you want, and all that, the next they make you out to be the worst untalented person, because some family member said something insanely stupid and they happen to buy in to it,

Derrick
 
I didnt get a chance to go over it with them yet. I am going to do it tomorrow or this week. I have been dreading what will essentially be 2 people telling me how much they think I suck. I have found some wedding photos online from photographers who charged 5 times the amount I did that have all the quality that she hates. I have also showed the entire collection to a few photographers in town all of whom love the shots. This has turned out to be quite the nightmare.

What I have learned:

Contracts, contracts and more contracts

Discuss your style with the client, go over examples of your work and get the client to show you some examples of how they would like the photos to turn out.

Be the boss during the day. You can't have them doing everything on their own time or nothing will get done.

feel free to add to the list.
 
Dude... the issue is not whether you suck. You don't.

The issue is that you don't have the necessary mindset for a wedding photographer. What you are hearing here is mostly the reasons why filmmakers don't become wedding photographers, NOT advice from successful wedding photographers. With that in mind:

1) Contracts are always a good idea... but wouldn't help you in this case. Telling someone that legally you are in the right, when they are disappointed with their wedding pictures, will not help you get more clients. It'll get you paid... once. And lose you many more jobs.

2) You assume too much on the part of your client by discussing your "style", showing other pictures. You need to have WEDDING pictures to show them. A complete album or two. Clients seeing your "style" will often imagine a standard wedding album with one or two "quirky" pics in your style. However, your problem seems not to be your style, but the fact that you lacked certain pictures (or that the "posed" pictures didn't come out nicely). Within your "style", you still need all the standard pics, no matter how composed... the bride's family (even if they're scattered around and "unposed"), etc. This is why I and one or two others have mentioned doing a gig or two for free... until you've shown a potential client the final result of an entire wedding shoot, you haven't shown them how your style applies to a WEDDING.

3) Your pics need to be FLATTERING. And reflect a happy occasion.

4) "Be the boss during the day" is the best and most important thing here. Not only in the photographers need to work hard in managing the flow of people and events to get the shots, but it acknowledges what you least seem to understand: YOU are being hired as an expert in wedding photography. YOU are the one assumed to know everything about creating a successful wedding album that will please the widest range of people. Anything your clients don't understand, or don't do on the wedding day, is because YOU didn't make it clear. If other relatives didn't like the album, it may be because YOU didn't ask things like, "Do you think your grandmother might like a shot with all her grandchildren together?" Now, this is the mindset of a wedding photographer. It may not be yours, and that's no criticism - it's a special talent and a special attitude that some people have, and some people don't and don't want.
 
I agree 100 percent. This was me wanting to help out a friend of a friend and a make a buck in the process. I do not have the mind set of a wedding photographer. Could I in the future? Maybe. Do I want to do another wedding? Not really. I am going to meet with them this week, explain my situation, hear their situation and try to come to a compromise. It's all I can do really. My main issue with this is that all along the way they were happy and all of a sudden they are displeased. Had they said something when I showed them the first set of edited proofs then I would have been able to work with what they had. Granted I would not have been able to get the shots that I missed, but at least been able to make the shots I did and do have meet their standards.

What a nightmare of an experience.
 
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Yeah, it's tough, but it happens a lot. And it's not only other people influencing the couple's ideas... there's also an "initial infatuation" factor that you see in all fields of endeavor... people buy a house but don't realize it doesn't really work for their lifestyle; people buy a car and then realize later, even though they test-drove it, that visibility is terrible... you can even read her, people buy cameras a lot, but then realize features essential to them are missing or inconvenient. Sometimes you have to live with things a while to know how much you really like 'em (I'll make no analogies to marriage).

I was thinking... if you were to dedicate yourself to wedding photography, you'd probably be considered great at it. The skills and eye that you have now are exactly the things that would separate a good from a great wedding photographer... you just lack some experience in the basics, which are easy to pick up if you want to. But as you say, if it's not something your really want to do, it's torturous.
 
Yeah ultimately I strongly believe you have to love what you are doing to be your best at it. I know it's not easy to love doing some things, perhaps nobody really likes wedding work as much as other work, but you might find someone who really likes what they are doing, knows how important it is to the couples they work for, and for that reason it's something they just really enjoy.

Personally, I don't know anyone like that. My friend Erik is an amazing photographer, he's still basically an amateur photographer, but nobody takes photography more seriously than him. Not only has he studied with a few of the best nature photographers in the world, gone on trips with them and learned from them, but he pours his time and passion into his art and just shoots a ton. His work is pretty incredible, but to pay the bills he'll shoot other work, like he's done several events even for my family before, though wedding photography isn't something he wants to get into. He's a great programmer too, really an expert, and makes money doing that as well (I've paid him myself numerous times, including on my last corporate project with Web-integration of Flash videos, etc.), and he loves programming. The reason he doesn't do wedding photography isn't because he can't do it, or wouldn't be good at it, but because photography to him is something really special, a hobby he loves, and if he's going to make money doing it, he wants it to be something he still really enjoys doing, otherwise he turns his hobby into a nightmare, basically.

I know that feeling in different ways. I remember when I was younger, I was one of the best swimmers around, because I grew up in a pool basically. Every summer I'd spend 8-10 hours in the pool most days, sometimes more, and my mom would even bring dinner to the pool often times. One time, in swim class, the teacher said to do armstroke down and back until we got tired. I just chuckled to myself, knowing that would never happen. An hour later I was the only one still going and class ended, and I was kind of a smartass about it. I was like, "So... can I stop now or do I have to keep going?" LOL. They asked me to join their swim team program and compete when I was in high school, but I said no. For one, I thought their pool was too cold, even doing laps, still too cold. I like to swim in a warmer pool, where it feels great right when I get in, not freezing cold. And I love to swim, it's something fun to do, I don't see it as anything competitive because I could care less about that. It's not something I wanted to do, to make a great hobby, something I enjoyed since I was really young, into something competitive like that. Now, that's not usually my nature, I'm a very competitive person, but in that case I chose to preserve the passion for my hobby rather than potentially lose it by making it something more.

With photography and filmmaking, I think the same applies. I don't want to do work that will make me hate filmmaking. I came down here with a dream, and it wasn't a dream of a ridiculous nature at first, I knew I would have to put in my time and work hard on stuff I didn't always want to do, but I changed my mind a bit when I got down. I used to think I'd have to be a grip or PA or all this for years until maybe I got a chance to go somewhere. Then I realized, screw that, I have enough money I don't need those jobs, and I definitely am not going to learn enough to make them worthwhile. I just started doing my own projects and taking what I wanted to do, and it's a lot more fun this way, plus I still think I've made more money doing this than I would working on anyone else's set, haha. I remember once I asked a bunch of my fellow students in film school whether they would rather be head of their own set, or a lower position on a major set. Almost everyone said major set. That's where I am very different. I couldn't care less about someone telling me they were a PA on Transformers. Oh wow, gee, a PA, how impressive. Sorry, I'd rather direct my own project than be anyone else's slave. I just don't have the mentality to answer to other people, I guess I make a lousy employee. ;) The point is, when something you love becomes something you hate, that's really a tragedy. If I work 90-100 hour weeks sometimes and filmmaking seems brutal, at least if I take a day or two off I always feel like what I'm doing is still really great and I'm having fun, and it beats a desk job, etc. But if I started to feel, you know what, this isn't what I had in mind, then I've lost the passion and no amount of money is worth risking that to me...
 
One thing will remain constant in your professional career, wherever it goes, and that's how you treat your customers. It's very very difficult to have your work thrown back in your face in any subjective medium and whatever line your draw in the sand now will almost certainly be later obscured by your own footprints. Are you a ruthless businessperson or a whore being slapped by the John? Or simply a decent, rational human being. What would I do? I'd tell them the deal is done, you'll retouch and reprint as desired, but your time spent isn't negotiable. Be nice, be sympathetic, offer the retouching and printing, but don't shank yourself just to please them.
PS Jonathan.. how would you treat your PA's? Like slaves or something better? Just curious.
 
haha, I always treat my PAs well, but I can't say they'll get paid well on small shoots. Last time, they got $50 but we tipped them $50 more at the end of the day, so we tried to be cool and fair, and they were both really stoked to get to work on the project and get experience. One of the guys was really hard working and nice, it was just funny because he was actually 40 years old, so he was quite a bit older than me, but he worked hard, was really polite, and said it was the biggest shoot he had worked on to that point. I treat a PA just like a treat a DP, same level of respect, everyone deserves respect and dignity, but I might not have time to talk to a PA much on a set because of obvious reasons. They aren't close enough to my position to require much communication, so that leaves lunch break or whatever to say hello, etc.
 
Your shots are fantastic. I'm pretty sure the bride knows this as well. I don't know them, but perhaps it's a much simpler issue of married life being hard and them trying to think of ways to get money back? It just seems like they're being extra harsh...
 
Also you should have them sign off on the project when it was done. Like a contract saying that liked everything and were cool with it. You both keep a copy and it would also act as a receipt.

-Nate
 
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