Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"

mcsmooth, these are the kinds of things i been questioning all along about this whole solid state thing and i'm basically being told im a worry wort and trying to attack someting proven and never fails and even if the numbers don't support the equation or are too close it's alright it works. although, in the defense of my paranoia i do have a project shot on P2 that now is not working for anyone although i did everything by the book and even used the "formatter" program from Panny.

Barry thought it was the way we were loading the P2 material into Edius but when we tried to use P2 select it still sees not video after 22 minutes in on this 4.5 hour project. no one thus far has been able to even see the stuff and for the first time since i been in the video business i have a project that i am having to give my customer their money back for not delivering usable media on time yet they received both the first and second (copy) hard drives in plenty of time just no one can see any video after 22 mins. panny said that the data is more than likely corrupted although it worked fine on location before we copied it off the card and onto a hard drive then backed the HDD up.

this is a first for our business and was our highest paid HD project to date. i fought this till im like those blueman revue folks and now im just tired and just gave the order at 7pm this evening to give the customer their money back, appologize, and ask them to continue to do business that we will seek an alternative for their HD applications . . and . . as i say, a first for me . . ever! i never had this with tape :o(
 
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mcsmooth said:
Where was this information from? Wasn't sure if I missed this somewhere or if you are thinking about the same information that was recently verified about P2 cards (which is done within card, not the camera).
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1255973


The reason I ask is that this seems a little risky considering your 24/48Mbps number would be at the exact minimum of class 6 cards ... "at the best fragmented state where no memory unit is occupied" ... which would leave a good probability of dropouts in high quality mode when some class 6 certified cards start to fill up.
Click to expand...

Your question is reasonable, so let me address how I came to this conclusion.

(1) Write Verification does occur with P2. This was stated by Panasonic and appears on their web pages.
What's inside a P2 card?
P2 cards are high-precision micro-computers with their own processors, firmware, a RAID controller, and gigabytes of the highest-quality zero-fault solid-state memory chips. A P2 card is an intelligent device that manages the data files — and even does a write-verification step for every byte of memory that gets written to the card (thus assuring fault-free operation). Early P2 cards were manufactured using actual SD memory cards in a striped RAID array, thus increasing the performance far beyond any individual memory chip’s speed. The newest generation of P2 cards dispenses with using individual SD memory cards and actually uses the core memory components.
Click to expand...
http://panasonic.com/business/provideo/p2-hd/faqs.asp

(2) A Class 4 card would be 4 MBps x 8 bits to a byte = 32 Mbps. That is well above the 24Mbps maximum of the HMC-150. So why can't a class 4 card work at the maximum data rate? The only logical answer is that the HMC-150 also does the write verification, which would make a class 4 too slow.

On the other hand, a class 6 card would be 6 MBps x 8 bit to a byte = 48 Mbps. Divide that by 2 for a write verification... 48 Mbps / 2 = 24 Mbps maximum. Interesting that this does fit the 24 Mbps maximum / 21 Mbps average.


The counter point to this idea is to say that if something goes wrong at the maximum data rate of 24 Mbps, with a write speed of 24 Mbps, if there are any delays in writing, the delays add up and we could lose data.

Let me explain why this will not happen: The camera has some RAM memory set aside as a write buffer. If we fall behind, the buffer would fill with data to be written. Now if we are lucky, the need for the maximum data recording goes away before we fill the buffer. A small amount of RAM, like 32 MB, would give us a bit over 10 seconds of buffer at the maximum data rate (24 Mbps or 3 MBps). This assumes no writing to the card at that time. IF we are writing to the card, then 32MB / the rate we are falling behind = the maximum time; which could be a very long time.

Let's assume that the incoming data is still at the maximum for longer than the buffer can hold. The only logical thing to do would be that once the buffer reaches the 95% fill point, limit the maximum data to 23 Mbps (or whatever number) to allow the card to catch up to the buffer.


The reason I ask is that this seems a little risky considering your 24/48Mbps number would be at the exact minimum of class 6 cards ... "at the best fragmented state where no memory unit is occupied" ... which would leave a good probability of dropouts in high quality mode when some class 6 certified cards start to fill up.
Click to expand...

Unlike hard drives, ROM, RAM, and Flash do not have any delay time for fragmented data. Yes, on a hard drive we must move the head from one track to another and nothing is being written at the time of movement, BUT there is no head delay for flash memory.

While there is no head delay for flash, other things could cause a delay. For example, with P2, if a write verification fails, the data is re-written up to 5 more times. If it still fails, the block is marked as bad and the next block is tried. So, if they use the same system for the HMC-150, any bad blocks could slow down the write process. (So, bad memory chips will end up with all sorts of mapped out sectors.)


I do have Jan's email address, but I don't want to bother her with the day to day little things. Write-verification is an important feature and it is something that later on, before the HMC-150 comes out, Panasonic should be promoting it as why Flash memory is so reliable. So, later I'll point this out to her, but not now.


Best wishes,

Bob Diaz
 
Just another point, flash memory reads rates and write rates are usually quite different.
 
Bob, I think you missed my point. I posted a link to the thread discussing the write verification... but that is for P2 cards. The 150 uses SD cards which are not P2 cards. P2 cards contain the same memory from SD cards, but the write verification is on the controller within the P2 card, not the SD memory or within the P2 drives/cameras. There is no write verification on SD cards, so what you were stating earlier is that the HMC150 does write verification itself. I just never saw that documented anywhere, and would be surprised if it did. Would be a great feature, but I wouldn't expect it from a more "consumer" device since tape cameras were never capable of this. Do any DSLRs do this?

I understand all of the numbers you mention, I just found it unlikely that they would have something set to run right at the exact limit. The fact that the spec mentions: "at the best fragmented state where no memory unit is occupied" seems to indicate that performance may vary otherwise. Correct, there are no head delays, but when space fills up and there is bad fragmentations, there can be delays. Many RAM and ROM devices have defragmentation functions to get around this. Read/write speeds are different, but as soon as you need to fix an error, you have read once and written twice and are over the limit.

dr d, you must have bad luck. Bob went around asking people's P2 experiences after you questioned it and it seemed like bad cases were slim to none compared to tape. I find it hard to believe you've never had any problems with tape... when the heads go bad (always a matter of time), you could have an entire bad tape before you realize there was a problem. I can see the concern with SD cards that can get corrupted from a number of factors (bad media, crappy device, human error), but P2 has already proven itself. Any filesystem based format has the potential to be corrupted, so tape will always have that advantage. For the people that aren't ready to make the change, HDV will be around for a while.

The 150 (and all AVCHD cams) has one disadvantage from other similar formats when it comes to recording backup. Since AVCHD cannot be streamed, you would not able to use devices like the Firestore and DV Rack. Those are great solutions for anyone that doesn't trust their recording format for important gigs. On the other hand the 150 can still monitor/record off component/HDMI, and monitoring looks like it will be much better on camera with the new focus features and graphs.
 
mcsmooth said:
The 150 (and all AVCHD cams) has one disadvantage from other similar formats when it comes to recording backup. Since AVCHD cannot be streamed, you would not able to use devices like the Firestore and DV Rack.
Click to expand...
Doesn't just affect AVC-HD though, it affects basically all new formats. You can't stream XDCAM-HD, XDCAM-EX, or AVC-Intra either.

However, there's a new way to get around that, which is the Convergent Designs and CineForm recorders that record to compactflash. That'll give you redundancy off the HD-SDI signal.
 
The 150 has a built in waveform, and a 32GB SDHC card holds more than enough footage while costing peanuts in comparison to a Firestore. You'll have to remind me why the lack of streaming is a terrible loss.
 
Barry_Green said:
Doesn't just affect AVC-HD though, it affects basically all new formats. You can't stream XDCAM-HD, XDCAM-EX, or AVC-Intra either.

However, there's a new way to get around that, which is the Convergent Designs and CineForm recorders that record to compactflash. That'll give you redundancy off the HD-SDI signal.
Click to expand...
Good point, I guess that is the tradeoff you get with VBR codecs. Since the 150 doesn't have an SDI out, you would have to wait for a portable HDMI solution, or save it for studio use (when you might need the extra color space anyway).

Alex.Mitchell said:
The 150 has a built in waveform, and a 32GB SDHC card holds more than enough footage while costing peanuts in comparison to a Firestore. You'll have to remind me why the lack of streaming is a terrible loss.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I was just pointing out that it is a loss for people who do not trust the SD card (like dr d). I hear stories all the time of people who's still camera flash memory "disapears", although it would be nice to see a real life test to show if this was related to camera, cheap media, computer software, or user error (messing with the card while writing). I would also like to see a test that showed what percentage of bad cards had >95% recoverable data. Anyone who has been working with hard drives for enough time should know these tricks by now. I've bought only super cheap brand flash mem in the past and not had a problem yet, although I would step it for a product like this.
 
mcsmooth,

The only proof I have is the fact that the numbers for a Class 4 card say it's more than fast enough for 24/21 Mbps, but Panasonic says no. The extra step for write-verification would explain why a Class 4 will not work at the maximum data rate.

It would be easy enough to do write-verification in software, so it is possible.

I don't know what the block size for files on an HMC-150, but let's assume the largest size of 32,768 bytes to a block. A single write-verification error, which would result in 6 additional write/write-verify steps (assuming the same as P2), would result in 32768 bytes x 6 tries = 196,608 bytes that must be buffered (worst case for 1 block failure). Not impossible to buffer with today's large RAM sizes.

If there are multiple block failures, yes the system is going to fall farther and farther behind. However, if the flash is having multiple failures, the card must be defective and the user should be warned. Five block failures would result in buffering almost 1 MB of data (worst case).

Finding the read/write timing specification for any Class 6 SDHC card was a bit of a search, but here's one I found:
Approx. 19MB/sec Read; 13MB/sec Write
Click to expand...
http://www.ecost.com/detail.aspx?EDP=36985016

I knew that the read speed should always be faster, but I never bothered to look it up before.


A class 6 card supports a minimum of 6MB/second write speed, but it could be much higher.
http://www.sdcard.org/about/speed_class/


While I lack total proof that a write-verification is supported on the HMC-150, the numbers seem to support that conclusion.


Sincerely,

Bob Diaz
 
Being not that up on all these specs other than frame size, how will the HMC150 and HPX170 compare to this kind of camera? One has to ask would this be a better way to spend the money?
scarlet.jpg


scarlet3K.jpg


This thing is going to be under $3,000 according to WEVA and Ted from Red. Will this be better, equal, or worse, than the HMC150 and HPX170 prosumer cameras?
 
BobDiaz said:
mcsmooth . . The only proof I have is the fact that the numbers for a Class 4 card say it's more than fast enough for 24/21 Mbps, but Panasonic says no. The extra step for write-verification would explain why a Class 4 will not work at the maximum data rate. . . . While I lack total proof that a write-verification is supported on the HMC-150, the numbers seem to support that conclusion. Sincerely, Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

While the HMC150 is a Class 6 SD card and others in the market seem to be choosing SD cards, any idea why RED ONE chose Compact Flash cards? Just wondering if they are faster, come in larger sizes, or ???
 
drdimento said:
Being not that up on all these specs other than frame size, how will the HMC150 and HPX170 compare to this kind of camera? One has to ask would this be a better way to spend the money?
This thing is going to be under $3,000 according to WEVA and Ted from Red. Will this be better, equal, or worse, than the HMC150 and HPX170 prosumer cameras?
Click to expand...


Seeing as how the HPX170 isn't out yet and we still don't have any concrete specs on Scarlet it'd probably be best to wait and see. Any discussions we have now on the subject are just going to have to get revised anyway when new info comes out. Here's some tentative info on scarlet: http://www.scarletuser.com/showthread.php?t=2

Which camera is better threads are one thing. But comparing two cameras which aren't even out yet and whose spec sheets haven't even been finalized could end up getting really ugly. I'm going to wait unitl Scarlet comes out and then see which one I'd prefer. Hopefully by the time the HPX170 comes out Red will have released concrete specs about Scarlet.
 
The problem with the $3,000 Scarlet price is it does NOT include a lens or a viewfinder and who know what other things you may have to purchase to make it work... $3,000 just buys only the body and nothing else.

Once both cameras come out and we can see the TOTAL price for the whole system, then a case can be made for one or the other. IMHO, Scarlet is more for the Digital Cinema and will not be the camera for Churches, Industrial and Event Videos. It's a whole different class of camera, but if you think it's the one that best fits your needs, go for it, it does look very interesting....



Bob Diaz
 
BobDiaz said:
The problem with the $3,000 Scarlet price is it does NOT include a lens or a viewfinder...
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

Actually the Scarlet does come with a lens (8x at...T2.8? I think) AND a 4.5" LCD...OK, that's not an EVF but it IS something.

sincerely,


ian
 
BobDiaz said:
The problem with the $3,000 Scarlet price is it does NOT include a lens or a viewfinder and who know what other things you may have to purchase to make it work... $3,000 just buys only the body and nothing else. . . . . Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

Actually I what I read in the three articles I read on it plus listing to Ted from Red I think it sounds like it comes with an 8x zoom lens, view finder, and something else I don't recall and thus serves as pretty much what came out of the box of my HVX200 except for Barry's book and the free Apple software which didn't help us :o(

So, I'm just guessing that this will be a direct comparison camera to the HMC150 and HPX170 other than the imaging chip size and of course the finished image size which if you look at that image size comparison chart . . WOW . . is all I can say. In fact, that WOW was the same kind of image reasoning that helped me make the decision to buy the HVX200 :o)
 
BobDiaz said:
Could you post the links to those articles please.
Bob Diaz
Click to expand...

See this article: DVXuser POST

Two links - one a video the other a write up with these specs:

Specifications for the upcoming Scarlet 3K camera include:

• NEW 2/3" MYSTERIUM X SENSOR
• 1-120 FPS (180FPS BURST)
• UP TO 100 MB/SEC REDCODE RAW AND RGB RECORDING TO DUAL COMPACT FLASH
• 4.8" LCD
• 8X T2.8 RED ZOOM LENS
• FULL AUTO OR FULL MANUAL SHOOTING MODES
• HDMI and HD-SDI
• FIREWIRE 800 and USB2
• STILL MODE
• COMPATIBLE WITH MANY RED ONE ACCESSORIES
• WI-FI CONTROL

The other two articles I read were at Red One's website and the other I will have to find if you really need it . . but I think that the WEVA article and Ted from Red both refer to the lens and lcd in them which is pretty sound I would think. ?? :o)
 
Guys, we have a whole forum for Scarlet - www.ScarletUser.com. Please take Scarlet discussions over there.

As for how it compares to these others: nobody knows, because Scarlet doesn't exist, and won't exist for at least a year. Red One isn't a video camera, it remains to be seen whether Scarlet is or not. So let's not thoroughly derail this thread again, when we have an entire forum dedicated for Scarlet.
 
Barry_Green said:
. . . As for how it compares to these others: nobody knows, because Scarlet doesn't exist, and won't exist for at least a year. Red One isn't a video camera, it remains to be seen whether Scarlet is or not. . . .
Click to expand...

Actually the stated availability by Ted from Red in the podcast and the article indicates around January of 2009 which is only a couple months following Panasonic's stated delivery of the HMC150 and HPX170 right?

Moreover, the stated intent by Ted from Red is that this is right in the neighborhood for a Wedding/Event videographer and was designed just for that market . . so for one, I want to know anything anyone has to say about how this camera stacks up against the HMC150 and HPX170 that this thread is about because IF it is as stated with those features and specs, I certainly want to know anything anyone has to say about all three cameras before I go buying anything.

Moreover, Ted from Red indicated that the codecs are already in FCP which would mean the camera is "sweet" out of the box if I am reading correctly?

I mean do help me if I am off course in thinking that this camera is a direct competitor to the HMC150 and HPX170 market? Like I say for me this is very important as we discuss this/these camera(s) because I don't have enough money to get one of the Panasonic's then turn right around and sell it at some loss to get the newest and hottest ??
 
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