Press Release: HMC150, "the new DVX"

And neither system will come close to "visually lossless". They're both long-GOP 4:2:0 highly-compressed systems.

That's why I mentioned that if Panasonic goes with a much lower than 24mbps bitrate (like 17mbps), they leave a huge opening for Canon to easily blow them out of the water with just a minor overhaul of the A1. It's difficult to think that the HMC150's imaging system is going to be a huge improvement over the A1.
 
. . . Also, AVC-HD has support for 1920x1080 as well as 1440x1080. And neither system will come close to "visually lossless". They're both long-GOP 4:2:0 highly-compressed systems. . .

QUESTION: All this chatter about bit rates, XXmbps, "visually lossless," and long GOP. Here's my question from a non-expert video producer, how does all this AVC-HD data compare to an HVX200 for 1920 x 1080?

BACKGROUND: I need to know where to go with regard to HD? I have owned an HVX200 since December 2006 and toyed with the HD trying different configurations and editors and have found that for us the following exists:

  1. The HVX makes much better 1080 x 1920 image quality than any 720 image setting we use on the camera.
  2. The HVX can be ingested into our Avid, Premier Pro, and Edius and works pretty seamlessly.
  3. Edius edits the P2 .mxf better than Avid or Premier Pro at least machine load wise.
  4. The P2 workflow is lovely and fun to do even editing from the card.
  5. We edit 1080 x 1920 then down covert on the fly to get the best SD image instead of recording in 720 x 480 or any 4:3 - 16:9 combination thereof.

Now because we are now going to sell our remaing two DVX100B's and pick up two more HD cameras, we need to know if we should wait for this new camera in discussion or if the HVX200 is better? And if so, a tiny little better? A lot better? Or gads better? Keep in mind we want color correction width, managable movie production controls, and best case scenario.

We produce television shows, documentaries, commercials, events, music videos, training videos, weddings, and movie production and thus do 30p, 24p and occassionally 60 with SD 4:3 or 16:9 and HD 1080 x 1920 or 720 x 1280 or ??
 
QUESTION: All this chatter about bit rates, XXmbps, "visually lossless," and long GOP. Here's my question from a non-expert video producer, how does all this AVC-HD data compare to an HVX200 for 1920 x 1080?

BACKGROUND: I need to know where to go with regard to HD? I have owned an HVX200 since December 2006 and toyed with the HD trying different configurations and editors and have found that for us the following exists:
  1. The HVX makes much better 1080 x 1920 image quality than any 720 image setting we use on the camera.
  2. The HVX can be ingested into our Avid, Premier Pro, and Edius and works pretty seamlessly.
  3. Edius edits the P2 .mxf better than Avid or Premier Pro at least machine load wise.
  4. The P2 workflow is lovely and fun to do even editing from the card.
  5. We edit 1080 x 1920 then down covert on the fly to get the best SD image instead of recording in 720 x 480 or any 4:3 - 16:9 combination thereof.
Now because we are now going to sell our remaing two DVX100B's and pick up two more HD cameras, we need to know if we should wait for this new camera in discussion or if the HVX200 is better? And if so, a tiny little better? A lot better? Or gads better? Keep in mind we want color correction width, managable movie production controls, and best case scenario.

We produce television shows, documentaries, commercials, events, music videos, training videos, weddings, and movie production and thus do 30p, 24p and occassionally 60 with SD 4:3 or 16:9 and HD 1080 x 1920 or 720 x 1280 or ??

We really don't have enough information to make any kind of solid educated guess as to whether or not this camera will offer better (or worse) overall performance, compared to the HVX. Hopefully, Panasonic will provide more information at NAB (and a working pre-production model). If you have the luxury of waiting, I would suggest waiting at least until NAB (which is less than a month now).
 
Yep, not enough information out there yet. But the HVX is intended to be the higher-end model. AVC-HD editing is comparatively painful as opposed to the breeze of P2 MXF editing, at least as of today -- by the time the 150 comes out, perhaps the NLEs will have their act together and editing will be seamless and easy. As of today, that's not the case.
 
Yep, not enough information out there yet. But the HVX is intended to be the higher-end model. AVC-HD editing is comparatively painful as opposed to the breeze of P2 MXF editing, at least as of today -- by the time the 150 comes out, perhaps the NLEs will have their act together and editing will be seamless and easy. As of today, that's not the case.

If it is for sure that the HVX200 is a higher end model then my question would be answered. Moreover, all I've read says that anything GOP is not the most pristine of imagery and if this newer camera is GOP as it appears from all that everyone is saying, then both of these issues would answer our question . . STAY with the HVX and as I had said earlier, our playing with an HPX500 did not give us a better image that we could see and thus again we'd just stay with HVX and lens adapter.

If anyone sees an falicy in our argument about the HVX being better please advise, otherwise we'll more than likely get more HVX's :o)
 
The HVX200 is meant to be a higher-end model than the HMC150. Jan already said so, in this thread (or elsewhere). The 150 will have features the 200 doesn't (like that WFM button) and the 200 will do things the 150 won't (like variable frame rates).

P2 > SD
Intraframe > GOP
4:2:2 > 4:2:0

All signs point to the 200 being the higher model. The 150's excitement is from two aspects:
1) lower price
2) long recording times on cheaper media

Now, this is speculation based on the words in a press release. We won't know for sure until the details get released at NAB, but it seems reasonable.
 
The HVX200 is meant to be a higher-end model than the HMC150. . . P2 > SD - Intraframe > GOP - 4:2:2 > 4:2:0 . . .

I think it's these three things in particular that tell me that for our pro productions we should stick with the HVX20 and especially the media. That part about a plain HD SD card is scary. I especially liked the idea of the RAID configuration of the P2 and was one of the selling points for us otherwise we would not have gone solid state media because we cannot replace our work and a single card without RAID is a scary thought for us. We've lost at least half a dozen SD cards to failures thus far and two of which were the HSC versions or whatever the term is.

ADDENDUM: However, for personal use, I do like that HDC-SD9 you all mentioned earlier. I am seriously thinking about picking one of those up. Too bad it doesn't also have miniDV then we could use it for a deck and get rid of the new one we just got to replace the one we fried :o)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&is=REG&O=productlist&sku=536077
 
Y'know, isn't 4:2:2 kind of a waste if the image is noisey to begin with?. There are a host of reports stating that XDCam EX's HQ Codec holds up incredibly well, Long GOP or not.

It's not to start a "noise" debate, however if the AVC-HD stuff at 18 or (hopefully) 24mpbs is cleaner than the HVX... the image stands to compete just fine with HVX footage; if not better in some cases.

XDcam footage is clean in a fantastic fashion. I actually hope HMC150 footage's image is just as "Hi-Def" as that.
 
AVC-HD editing is comparatively painful as opposed to the breeze of P2 MXF editing, at least as of today -- by the time the 150 comes out, perhaps the NLEs will have their act together and editing will be seamless and easy. As of today, that's not the case.

My expectation is that the folks at Cineform are already hard at work to make the codec work with AVCHD so I don't see a lot of problems as far as editing.

Unfortunately if the LCD is poor on the HMC then that's a deal breaker for me. I've been getting along just fine focusing with the LEX on the A1's LCD, and really won't be able to afford the price of a monitor, plus all the inconvenience of making the camera more bulky.
 
I don't know... I put the F350 and the HVX next to each other and I enjoy the look of the HVX much better.

I hope that the HMC150 isn't as noisy but has the same mojo.
 
I agree with the notion that one potential advantage Canon and a few others will have against the HMC150 is simply maintaining the HDV recording option.
I realize HDV is viewed as an older and subsequently inferior format to the highest quality AVCHD, but we still don't even know if Panasonic is prepared to implement the highest quality AVCHD in the HMC150.

If they don't do this, then I have to agree with Tzedekh's post and Robert M Wright's post regarding the shortened shelf life the HMC150 by leaving itself vulnerable to the competition for failing to use the highest quality solution.
Even if the competition doesn't optimize their cameras with higher bitrates for AVCHD, they still retain the option to keep HDV as another recording format alongside AVCHD, which Panasonic is unable to do.
However....Panasonic could silence all of that if it also had a single P2 slot and could record DVCProHD along with AVCHD, but I kinda-sorta doubt that will happen....

These cameras still represent a transitional phase into HD for the indie filmmakers.
There will be a lot of first time HD camera buyers out there.
They've been holding out for a solution that presents them with the most amount of options and the least amount of headaches.
I'm afraid that if Panasonic only uses AVCHD, without allowing for an HD recording option that retains high quality while being NLE friendly, which AVCHD hasn't proven itself to be yet, then they've got a pretty big problem on their hands.
They need to give us more options.
 
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If it is for sure that the HVX200 is a higher end model then my question would be answered. Moreover, all I've read says that anything GOP is not the most pristine of imagery and if this newer camera is GOP as it appears from all that everyone is saying, then both of these issues would answer our question . . STAY with the HVX and as I had said earlier, our playing with an HPX500 did not give us a better image that we could see and thus again we'd just stay with HVX and lens adapter.

If anyone sees an falicy in our argument about the HVX being better please advise, otherwise we'll more than likely get more HVX's :o)

While the HVX might be intended to be the higher end model, the HMC150 potentially could wind up being the superior camera for many (perhaps most) purposes. As Barry mentioned, it will have features not found on the HVX (and vice-a-versa).

Interframe compression (GOP) does not necessarily imply lesser quality imagery. In fact, all else being equal, much better image quality can be acquired using interframe compression than using intraframe only compression, particularly in scenes with little motion.

If the HMC150 does record AVCHD at a bitrate of 24mbps, it might very well outperform DVCPRO HD, for many uses. It's possible that Panasonic might choose to improve the CCDs significantly.

Up to this point, AVCHD has been a consumer only recording format, giving the major NLE makers little reason to put much effort into supporting AVCHD well with their products. That should start changing with the HMC70 shipping next month.

If the HMC150 winds up shooting a much poorer image than the HVX, it will probably be a very short lived camera. If it proves to shoot a marginally lower quality image than the HVX (in a general sense), you might not perceive the difference in image quality, just as you don't perceive the difference in image quality with the HPX. In that case, things like lower ownership cost (almost a certainty) and longer recording times on memory cards of equal size (in terms of gigabytes - along with far lower cost per gigabyte as well) might make the HMC150 a better choice anyway.
 
Robert M Wright - Good points and well stated. I guess I'm just anxious to have a complete 3 camera HD solution and especially in solid state as we have begun taking advantage of the HVX P2 cards and doing so has made us dislike tape.

However, as a side bar I'm a former scientist displaced and landed in my hobby as a full time business producing tv shows, documentaries, commercials, etc., and most recent our first movie. The problem with this scientific background is that I am historically a specification buyer and not a look feel although the latter is important but not the primary. But what has been disturbing me is that folks in here with the P2 solution (like us) keep saying that HDV is a generic temporary format and bad compression MPEG2 with little color correction etc. etc. and then I see movies posted that knock my socks off and that makes me jealous, because I know I have talent but I'm not getting that look and feel in the image.

So, to this end I began actually taking HD video over and over with experiments on the settings, different edits, filters, etc. and always in 720HD just because at the time I only had an 8GB card and thus tried to get more time out of the card and all the time not really pleased with the image and thus as recent as January was getting ready to sell one of our DVX100B's and then pick up an HDV camera from Sony.

Then I seen Barry and another post that the HVX produced better 1080 than 720 because of the camera being a native 1080 and within the last few weeks managed to get a 16GB and shot gads of muliti-cam angles in 1080 x 1920, sync'd them, edited, and output my first completed HD project and WOW! I don't want to get rid of my HVX after all and was thinking "Go ahead Doc, bite the bullet, sell a DVX, put some bills with it, and get that next HVX." Then I see this "NEW CAMERA" that looks like, maybe feels like, and maybe is a better HVX. However, different media flow (similiar - but different assets) and leading edge unfriendly format and thus now it's - - - WHAT TO DO?

See the rub? I have to have a HD solution and want to move forward but not at a snails pace like Avid.
 
My expectation is that the folks at Cineform are already hard at work to make the codec work with AVCHD so I don't see a lot of problems as far as editing.
Depends on the file size, largely (ooh, a pun). If CineForm makes the files 5x or 10x larger, to me that's a problem. If I shoot on a 32GB card and when I import it into ProRes it needs a 500GB hard disk, that's just stupid -- yet that's how FCP works. So how big does CineForm get? If it's comparable file sizes, no problem, but if it's 5x or 10x bigger, I think anyone would find that questionable as a long-term solution.

Unfortunately if the LCD is poor on the HMC then that's a deal breaker for me. I've been getting along just fine focusing with the LEX on the A1's LCD, and really won't be able to afford the price of a monitor, plus all the inconvenience of making the camera more bulky.
Yeah, but -- if there's a waveform there, what's the chance that there's a focus-in-red? I think the odds are pretty high, and focus-in-red works really well. If it has magnified focus and focus-in-red, that's all anyone should "need". You may "want" more, but would you really "need" it?
 
which Panasonic is unable to do.
They could do it, they just won't. It's not that someone won't let them join the HDV coalition, they just refuse to do it, primarily because they think it's inadequate quality.

I'm afraid that if Panasonic only uses AVCHD, without allowing for an HD recording option that retains high quality while being NLE friendly, which AVCHD hasn't proven itself to be yet, then they've got a pretty big problem on their hands.
The only high-quality edit-friendly codec out there right now is DVCPRO-HD. HDV certainly isn't NLE-friendly! That's why solutions like CineForm and Apple Intermediate Codec and ProRes all came about, is to get *away* from HDV. And all those options are available for AVC-HD right now. You can use FCP to convert from AVC-HD to NLE-friendly ProRes right now. You can use iMovie or FCExpress to convert from AVC-HD to NLE-friendly AIC right now. And I believe CineForm already has an AVC-HD to CineForm converter right now. In addition, Panasonic has a free utility that converts AVC-HD to DVCPRO-HD MXF format, which is supported by every NLE on the market.

The only question is about NATIVE AVC-HD editing. Canopus already has it, and from what I understand they have it running in realtime for one stream. By the time the 150 hits, I don't expect this will be a problem.
 
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Interframe compression (GOP) does not necessarily imply lesser quality imagery.
Not in theory, no, but in practical applications, so far, it is. It's all about the bitrate. Interframe has so far been used to get extremely low bitrates; if they'd amp up the bitrates then interframe could be equivalent or even superior.

In fact, all else being equal, much better image quality can be acquired using interframe compression than using intraframe only compression, particularly in scenes with little motion.
All else being equal, yes -- but that means equivalent bitrates. And that's the difference. Until they get the interframe bitrates up to the same as intraframe, or at least in the same ballpark, intraframe is superior. And as far as editing, intraframe is way superior.

If the HMC150 does record AVCHD at a bitrate of 24mbps, it might very well outperform DVCPRO HD, for many uses. It's possible that Panasonic might choose to improve the CCDs significantly.
That is a possibility, especially in that it can be full-raster, but even so it's still 4:2:0. I think at its very best it could be comparable.

If the HMC150 winds up shooting a much poorer image than the HVX, it will probably be a very short lived camera.
Depends on price, of course, but in general I'd agree. But if it's $1995, it almost doesn't matter about the image, I predict it'd still fly off the shelves! However, I can't see why it would be *any* less of an image than the current HVX (long-GOP issues notwithstanding). It looks just like an HVX, it has the same type of design as the HVX, and I bet it uses the same chips (or newer, if engadget is to be believed) as the HVX.

If it proves to shoot a marginally lower quality image than the HVX (in a general sense), you might not perceive the difference in image quality, just as you don't perceive the difference in image quality with the HPX.
Who doesn't perceive an image quality difference with an HPX500? It's a stop and a half faster with more dynamic range and overall just looks better.

In that case, things like lower ownership cost (almost a certainty) and longer recording times on memory cards of equal size (in terms of gigabytes - along with far lower cost per gigabyte as well) might make the HMC150 a better choice anyway.
For some users. For others, no -- for those who need the P2 infrastructure, the codec choices, the instant editability, the variable frame rates, etc., the HVX would be the better choice. For those who don't need those, and for whom price is a much bigger concern (i.e., most of our indie/guerilla members), the 150 looks like it would be a more attractive option -- assuming general performance is comparable.
 
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. . . In addition, Panasonic has a free utility that converts AVC-HD to DVCPRO-HD MXF format, which is supported by every NLE on the market. . . .

Barry, can you direct me to this utility download? I'd like to have this in our inventory just for the sake of utilitarian.
 
Then I see this "NEW CAMERA" that looks like, maybe feels like, and maybe is a better HVX. However, different media flow (similiar - but different assets) and leading edge unfriendly format and thus now it's - - - WHAT TO DO?
Well, timing will be key here, since this new unit isn't due out for, what -- six months? 8 months? So if you need to act soon, the 150 wouldn't be an option anyway. And if you don't need to act soon, wait it out and let others be the guinea pig. Being the very first to buy is rarely a wise move, as usually you're the one discovering all the faults (look at the EX1 buyers for an example). Sometimes it can pay off to be the "first"; the very first HVX owners and the very first Red owners made sizable returns on investment because there was so much demand for those new products. I don't expect that'll be the case with the 150, so -- buy when you need it, and if you can be patient, others will sort out any issues and report here so you know what you're getting into.
 
. . . Who doesn't perceive an image quality difference with an HPX500? It's a stop and a half faster with more dynamic range and overall just looks better. . .

At Washington DC at the Gov Video conference, Panasonic had a HPX500 on display to play with and we had our HVX with us and played also and honestly other than the lower light capability, our image looked just as good as the 500. That is, other than austetic "look" of being like the big boys we couldn't find any better image for the difference in money. Sure it was maybe 5 or 10% better looking image and certainly the DOF of the lens helped the look but not for the money considering that I can get an external adapter that would give a LOT more DOF than the HPX lens option and a little more light added isn't that big of an issue either. Again, the HVX with adapter and say 3 Niknon lenses is about half to one third the price of an HPX with decent lens or two (for adequate comparision) and not that large of an improvement in image (if any) and we had four sets of eyes on our little test run.
 
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