Stuck Between EX1, HVX 200, and HX-A1 :(

[SaintDemure]

Okay, I've been researching non stop for the past few days now, I figure the best way to find an answer is by asking those who know.

I am about to make the biggest investment of my life, and I want to be sure I commit to something I won't regret in a month.

I need a camera, I am tired of renting, tired of borrowing. Problem is, which one to buy?

You may ask, well what sort of thing are you looking for?

Well, to put it simply, I want the cleanest, crisp, vibrant, HD film-like look there is. I want everything I shoot to mimic film as closely as possible. I know a lot of that requires tuning the settings and shooting in the right conditions.

Another very important thing to me, is shooting fluid slow motion. I know the HVX can do that pretty well. I just really want something I will be completely satisfied with, I am not worried about cost so much, because I am willing to go all out and spend everything I have.

A 35mm adaptor is next, but I will focus on the camera first.

It seems as though everytime I start leaning in one direction, I get pulled in another!
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

thank you.

 

[Alan Bradley]

i've had the canon XH-A1 and LOVED it. It is HD (albeit HDV). It is clean. It can be very filmic. It is great value for the price. I own the sony EX1 now. I won't go into all the ramblings about how great it is. But, yes, it is a great camera. I've never had the HVX but did own the DVX and it was, is, awesome. From what I've heard, the HVX can undercrank and overcrank very well. If you want slow-mo then it will more than handle that for you. The EX1 can do great slowmo and you can view it in camera after you record it. That is a great little feature. The canon can do slowmo but you will have to do that all in post with your NLE. The canon is limited in camera to record only in 60i, 30p, or 24p. Only those frame/second. The EX1 can do slowmo in 24p 720 by S & Q recording up to 60 frames. That is you can set the frame rate anywhere from 1-60 in 24p 720p. In 1080p 24p, you can adjust the frame rate from 1-30 frames. I think the HVX is similar to this.
so the bottom line is that all 3 will give you slowmo. Just that the HVX and EX1 EXCELL in this department. the canon will have to rely on post for over/undercranking.
The HVX and EX1 are 5250 and 6500 respectively.
The canon is $3250.

Along with the HVX and EX1 comes all sorts of editing and recording media cost issues. you must see if that is a right fir for you.
The canon just uses good old $6 miniDV. and the picture is very awesome for the price. If money and media is not a problem for you then i'd say look into the HVX or ex1 for your slowmo needs. Or maybe even wait a bit. the landscape is about to change dramatically i suspect. Canon and panny will both have to answer the EX1 very soon.

 

[Noel Evans]

Well, to put it simply, I want the cleanest, crisp, vibrant, HD film-like look there is.

Off the top of my head - the cleanest and most crisp image clearly comes from the EX. But is that the total equation?

I want everything I shoot to mimic film as closely as possible.

All you need then is a camera that shoots 24p for that. And the EX, HVX and A1 all do it. Theres so much more in this equation than camera.

Another very important thing to me, is shooting fluid slow motion.

HVX and EX1 will both perform well here. A1 is capable but it takes an extra step in your NLE.

I just really want something I will be completely satisfied with, I am not worried about cost so much, because I am willing to go all out and spend everything I have.

Completely satisfied is a tough one. Every camera out there has one compromise or another. This is where I would look if I was you, whats the compromise on X? Y? Z? then decide what you can live with.

 

[Buck Forester]

I think it also depends on what you plan to do with your footage. I too was spending lots of time online, reading reviews, watching footage, pros and cons, going to manufacturer sites, etc.

I've never edited video on a serious level yet, I'm just a photographer. The conclusions I came to was I think I'd prefer the intraframe recording and color space of the HVX200, but I'd prefer the footage and high-def specs of the EX1.

My final choice was the EX1. I need the true hd specs to keep all marketing options open (hd stock footage and the possibility of an hd broadcast channel using my footage and some of these channels require minimum specs (such as 1/2" sensors, etc.).

Plus, in my reasoning, the HVX200 is excellent but it's towards the end of its cycle in terms of upgrading (this digital techy world is crazy!). I'm sure the HVX300 or whatever it'll be called will be to die for. But I got to jump in the game sometime and the EX1 is a good one to jump in with if you need true hd specs. IMHO. Take whatever I say with a grain of salt and a shot of tequila.

 

[SaintDemure]

Excellent feedback. I can always count on you boys for whatever questions arise and I am very, very thankful for that!

I think I might be going with the A1 because if I can use the extra money I'd spend on an EX or a HVX, and pick up some goodies such as a monitor, steadicam, 35mm adaptor set up eventually.

I just have to figure out the best settings to shoot with to really achieve fluid slo-mo with the A1. I've seem some amazing, and not so amazing slo-mo with this cam. There is nothing more I hate than cheesy jumpy slow motion. Yuck!

Thanks again!

 

[Noel Evans]

Well when youre ready jump on the Canon forums and run a search.. pretty sure theres been a few posts, I remember doing a quick test that I posted online.

 

[lawriejaffa]

Yep, in all honesty all cams should meet specifications, i wouldnt pick one over the other over that (none are guarantees) i mean the hvx was good enough for cloverfield, while networks might not touch cams under 2/3 chips for serious stuff so its relative.

Good luck with your choice SaintDemure, for me the hvx is like a cute hd filmlook camera, the others are like sharp video cams - but boy is the EX sharp - and that can be just what your looking for.

Also consider ease of work flow, are you wanting to be able to just dump your footage into an NLE and edit hey presto- or use intermediate codecs to transfer footage for the EX? But then you get a full raster with the EX! Decisions decisions

Then the A1 is a great price isnt it - good value for money! Do u have the budget for either 3? presuming you do?

 

[doondoon]

I own an HVX and love it, but I can tell you the EX1 is faster than the HVX. You're going to find it much easier to shoot in low light situations with the EX1 and see much less noise.

Focus: The HVX is a pain to focus if you're shooting handheld. On sticks it's not such an issue because you can use the focus assist. EX1's LCD is much higher resolution and with the "focus peaking" you'll feel more confident that your shots are sharp.

The HVX has better color space (4:2:2) and I think has a more "film like" image. The color space to me isn't such a big deal anymore... 90% of the time the higher quality color space is negated in post by running it through different types of compression to go onto the internet or SD television... by the time it gets there the HVX colors are very hard to distinguish from another camera with less color space. Someone might argue that since the color space originated in 4:2:2 that the color will to some degree remain (even after other types of post processing and compression are applied)... but I think it would be very small difference. Resolution on the other hand is much easier to see (in fact most identify if right away) and the EX1 has a very distinct advantage over the HVX in that department. Also, IF you need to shoot at 4:2:2 color space for the "best" quality the camera can deliver than all you need to do is record direct to disk / FCP via the HD-SDI out on the EX1... you can choose what ever codec you like. For instance Apple ProRes HQ or DVCPRO HD. this is very easy to do and is becoming more of a reality for those working on smaller budgets.
I captured some footage just like this the other day with the EX1 in unison with the Letus Extreme adapter with an 75mm Cooke S4 and the results were VERY nice.


My advice is try both cameras and see which one feels better to you... but I think the EX1 has just leap-frogged the HVX.

Keep in mind that Panasonic engineers are most likely already designing the EX1 killer.... but you can only look at what's available now.

 

[LuckyStudio 13]

I think I might be going with the A1 because if I can use the extra money I'd spend on an EX or a HVX, and pick up some goodies such as a monitor, steadicam, 35mm adaptor set up eventually.

With the A1, you will need

a) a hv20 to use as a deck. A full solid state non movable part camera is more solid and longer lasting, look at the additional 5 year warranty on the panasonic solid state only series cams (hpx500, hpx2000, hpx3000).

b) a HD monitor to focus with your 35mm adapter. The canon lcd is just not sharp enough.

c) extra time to transfer footage from tape to your NLE. In the long run tape = more costly than solid state media.

d) The canon A1 sensor has a max resolution of 1440 x 1080. It is also a smaller 1/3" sensor and will probably lose more light with an adapter.

The $5200 Panasonic hvx200 and $23k (complete with lens and batt) Panasonic hpx500 have only only 960x540 pixels on their sensor.

The $48k (body only,no lens) Panasonic hpx3000 sensor has a full 1920 x 1080 HD sensor like the $6495 XDCAM EX1's sensor. Neither the hpx2000 or hpx 3000 can do variable frame rate !

Toning down sharp video with filters are much more doable vs. trying to regain sharpness (almost impossible). If you want to get 35mm adapter, you don't even need any filter. The 1/2" sensor and low light sensitivity of the EX1 also helps tremendously with any 35mm adapter.

 

[Zack Birlew]

Yeah, I have to agree. The whole tape thing is getting a little long in the tooth. I've missed out on deadlines for 24 and 48 hour film contests because it took the extra time to download from tapes. Especially after seeing the Canon HF10 and HF100 at CES, I would wait. You never know if Canon will release a tapeless A1.

Really, the whole 1080p vs. 720p thing is a factor too. Personally, I enjoy a sharper image, the clearer the better. I've seen some comparisons between these cameras and I've gotta say, the HVX is really falling behind as far as clear images goes. However, I did see "Cloverfield" and couldn't tell the difference to be honest, so there may be more to it than some camera tech's side-by-side comparisons. The EX1 is really neat, 1080p with a P2-esque tapeless workflow, but it has its own issues and quirks too as you can read in several reviews. None of these cameras are perfect, but the safe bet, at least before NAB, I think, is the EX1. If you can wait, I would recommend that you do. But if you have work to worry about, then by all means get what you need.

 

[SaintDemure]

Yep, in all honesty all cams should meet specifications, i wouldnt pick one over the other over that (none are guarantees) i mean the hvx was good enough for cloverfield, while networks might not touch cams under 2/3 chips for serious stuff so its relative.

Good luck with your choice SaintDemure, for me the hvx is like a cute hd filmlook camera, the others are like sharp video cams - but boy is the EX sharp - and that can be just what your looking for.

Also consider ease of work flow, are you wanting to be able to just dump your footage into an NLE and edit hey presto- or use intermediate codecs to transfer footage for the EX? But then you get a full raster with the EX! Decisions decisions

Then the A1 is a great price isnt it - good value for money! Do u have the budget for either 3? presuming you do?

Then the A1 is a great price isnt it - good value for money! Do u have the budget for either 3? presuming you do?

I have the money for the HX A1 now, but for the others, it will be another month or so. I am just itching to get something ASAP. I lost my old DVX to a poor mount mishap, so it's time to move on and upgrade.

 

[Kholi]

Are you gonna get a 35mm ADapter with the camera?

I think if you wanted a full package go with the XH-A1.

 

[lawriejaffa]

Yeah full raster is just one element dxmetal - the hpx500 and ex are pretty incomparable in my book!

I think that whatever choice mate def has to take into account the accessories - without em any choice of cam would be pretty poor!

 

[reticulan5]

Okay, I've been researching non stop for the past few days now, I figure the best way to find an answer is by asking those who know.

I am about to make the biggest investment of my life, and I want to be sure I commit to something I won't regret in a month.

I need a camera, I am tired of renting, tired of borrowing. Problem is, which one to buy?

You may ask, well what sort of thing are you looking for?

Well, to put it simply, I want the cleanest, crisp, vibrant, HD film-like look there is. I want everything I shoot to mimic film as closely as possible. I know a lot of that requires tuning the settings and shooting in the right conditions.

Another very important thing to me, is shooting fluid slow motion. I know the HVX can do that pretty well. I just really want something I will be completely satisfied with, I am not worried about cost so much, because I am willing to go all out and spend everything I have.

A 35mm adaptor is next, but I will focus on the camera first.

It seems as though everytime I start leaning in one direction, I get pulled in another!
Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

thank you.

I went through the same thing.I always buy my cameras.Nothing like having your own and worrying about some one elses be it borrowed or hired.
I have shot several shorts and corps with Sony HDV s and HVX200.I ended up buying the 200 after shooting with quite a few different cameras.If your after slo mo.Then the 200 is your cup of tea.
I was the D O P on a short film called Sarah's Jihad.(Check out stage6 for a teaser)
It's about 2 .One a rich Anglo Saxon the other a poor Muslim migrant.Did some 50fps for a reenactment of a gang fight/race riot between Australian Youths and Middle Eastern .Blood splattering looked very smooth just like being shot on film at 50 fps.The DVCPro HD codec and 100 Mg with 4:2:2 sampling nice clean images.The Sony Express card shoots at 50 mg and with a Mpeg codec.Sony could have got it so right had they gone the extra bit.
Panys only small let down,is not installing a full raster 1920 C C D .

 

[SaintDemure]

Are you gonna get a 35mm ADapter with the camera?

I think if you wanted a full package go with the XH-A1.

right now the front runner for me is the XH-A1 and an SGpro adapter...

 

[Mister Big]

It's clear one can't have it all. Choose the camera that has the drawbacks you can best live with. Something better, newer, and cheaper is just around the corner. For me, it's worth a lot that the HVX has been around, has a huge user base, and lots of third-party accessories (UW housings, telephoto, wide angle attachments, tips on using with Merlin, etc.). It's a good time to be making video content.

 

[booth]

Panys only small let down,is not installing a full raster 1920 C C D .

I'd say it's more the size of the CCD's and the sensitivity of the camera, which introduces quite a lot of noise to the image. For me this is a killer with the HVX. The camera would be amazing if it weren't for the noisy images it produces. You can reduce this somewhat, but if you want to underexpose to protect the highlights then brighten it up in post, it's grain city. Add a lens adapter to that, and more noise is introduced and it's even less sensitive.

Personally if I was to go out and get one out of the 3 mentioned now. It'd be the EX1 for its clean image, more recording time on the SxS cards, and 1/2 inch chips.

Highest rez, low noise, low light performance rumored to be better than Red. I'd rather put up with the EX1's rolling shutter over the HVX's noise any day.

Only thing it's lacking is 4:2:2 and Convergent Designs will have a widget to record to soon which will allow you to record from SDI out, 4:2:2.

XH-A1 comes last in my opinion, but it's the cheapest option and still a capable camera. I can't go back to tape though.

 

[adamr316]

If I had the money and could only choose one camera right now it'd be the EX1.

I love the HVX200 but it's picture to me isn't really HD. It looks fine for closeups (especially for women and older gentelmen) but for those wide shots it screams low budget/not true HD. It is just too soft of an image.

The HVX200's soft picture along with its grainy image makes for a bad investment now that the EX1 is out. The DVCPro HD codec doesn't save it from those two truths. You can always dial down the detail on the EX1 if you want a more soft, film-like image. But for documentary work the EX1 shines yet again for its window-like HD look and great lowlight capabilities.

Here's hoping the next HVX model is bests the Sony! For now I want to get my hands on an EX1 after seeing all of the pretty footage posted online!

 

[ddh]

I'd say it's more the size of the CCD's and the sensitivity of the camera, which introduces quite a lot of noise to the image. For me this is a killer with the HVX. The camera would be amazing if it weren't for the noisy images it produces. You can reduce this somewhat, but if you want to underexpose to protect the highlights then brighten it up in post, it's grain city. Add a lens adapter to that, and more noise is introduced and it's even less sensitive.

Personally if I was to go out and get one out of the 3 mentioned now. It'd be the EX1 for its clean image, more recording time on the SxS cards, and 1/2 inch chips.

Highest rez, low noise, low light performance rumored to be better than Red. I'd rather put up with the EX1's rolling shutter over the HVX's noise any day.

Only thing it's lacking is 4:2:2 and Convergent Designs will have a widget to record to soon which will allow you to record from SDI out, 4:2:2.

XH-A1 comes last in my opinion, but it's the cheapest option and still a capable camera. I can't go back to tape though.

the Convergent Design solution looks interesting. I assume it will be out at NAB?

 

[basspig]

I'm surprised there was only one mention of Red as a choice in the running, albeit a Red One with full kit can easily cost half of the price of an F900.
I've seen some uncompressed frames from Red, and it's lattitude IS incredible. And it's a 4K raster to boot.

That said, the EX1 is the "mini-Red" of HD cameras, offering a picture that is "digital SLR-like", lacking in sharpening artifacts and compression artifacts that plague HDV.

We can all hope that as semiconductor tech and volume of manufacture push down on prices of memory cards, that SxS card prices will fall considerably to the point where owning a dozen or two dozen 32GB cards doesn't involve a second mortgage.

I chose it because of the picture and sound quality. It just blows me away every time I look at some of the clips I shot last Tuesday night. It's clean, presents no aliasing artifacts, despite the tremendous detail it packs into the frame, the lens is very good, it can shoot CLEAN images in dim light and the workflow is as convenient as pulling stills off a digital SLR. I find the Clip Browser easy to use and quick to wrap and copy clips to the NLE. Getting any particular shot off the cards is so simple now. No more winding through tapes hunting for a particular shot.

Bottom line is, I think that adopting a format like this involves research, decision and COMMITMENT. You have to know what you're getting into, how much it will cost on the BACK end. Can your NLE deal with the format? Can you afford enough SxS cards to work in the field without stopping to offload?
Ultimately, there will be options for recording off the SDI port, eventually, so the future looks bright for XDCam EX. It is the wave of the future, and it's here now.