Panasonic USA, HVX answers the EX1 push with a free 16GB P2 card

[Jared Meyer]

Right, that's what I factored in. That's about 30% more expensive. HVX at $5,000, plus 30% = $1500, = EX1 at $6500.

Gotcha. Our percentages seemed to be the same but I wasn't positive if it was because you were factoring in a second free card. I hadn't heard anything about it here yet.

All I'm saying is, the game ain't over until it's over. Right now the HVX is highly entrenched, about 80% of broadcast sales are P2.

I would not have guessed that

Panasonic still sells lots of DVXs. Lots and lots of those.

I would not have guessed that either.

The XHA1 is a great little HDV camcorder but its sales have dried up ever since the HV20 came out

Or that. Which all goes to prove your next comment:

What we as a community think is happening, and what's actually happening, are not always the same.

Agreed. I knew you could help me get a clearer picture of the landscape.

I've been looking at the HD options for a while now and while part of me only cares about whether the system meets my immediate needs and the needs of my clients, the other part would like to invest in a tech that's going to be around for a long time. Is it P2? Is it some variant of XDcam Media? I will admit I am surprised to hear that P2 is doing so well. The 80% figure refers to a current snapshot of broadcast purchases, or is that overall penetration?

In doing research I came across the following chart. I'm sure I'm missing something, but what is it? On paper, SxS looks better, doesn't it?

I'd rather have burning hot coals put into my eyes than buy a Sony Cam... and that's maybe being mild.

I can't disagree with that. Never been a fan of anything Sony. I really love working with Panasonic cameras- and while I'll buy whatever works the best for my business, I sure wish it were more of what I'm already used to. It bums me out that the HVX isn't a perfect fit for my business. It's the only reason I've held off going HD for this long. AVC-INTRA DVX would be magic. DVX form-factor that I'm used to, DVX prices so I can afford a few of them, tapeless, but cheaper cards than P2, low profile and easily handheld. Maybe I will be able to hold out...

 

[Barry_Green]

the other part would like to invest in a tech that's going to be around for a long time. Is it P2? Is it some variant of XDcam Media?

The major networks like Fox and ABC have committed to using P2 exclusively for the next three years. I'm sure some manner of XDCAM will cling on for a while, but frankly Sony throws more formats at the wall than any other manufacturer, hoping that something will stick.

XDCAM serves a purpose P2 doesn't, which is that it's a "permanent" media. So if you like the tape workflow, you'll love XDCAM -- it's the same tape-based workflow but with files instead of needing to track timecode.

The 80% figure refers to a current snapshot of broadcast purchases, or is that overall penetration?

Overall penetration of those who are going tapeless.

In doing research I came across the following chart. I'm sure I'm missing something, but what is it?

Facts and perspective. I mean, there's some egregious lies on that "chart". Let me try a more fact-based version of that table:

Interface
SxS: Serial
P2: Parallel
Q: Who cares?

Write Speed
SxS: 800mbps
P2: 640mbps
Explanation: says who? Sony doesn't, they only list "transfer speed" at 800mbps. They never quote a statistic for write speed. These are "theoretical" figures anyway, and subject to change -- I strongly suspect the new P2 32GB and 64GB cards will actually be *faster* than SxS's 800mbps.

Data Transfer Speed
SxS: 2.5 GB per second
P2: 1.2 GB per second
Explanation: See, this is one of those lies that has enough truth to it to make you think it's relevant when it's absolutely a non-issue. What does it matter that the ExpressCard interface is 2.5gbps, when the underlying memory can't handle faster than about 1/3 of that speed? SxS = 800mbps. PCMCIA = 1.2gbps. So PCMCIA cards are capable of being *faster* than Sxs cards! They could have implemented SxS in the PCMCIA form factor if they wanted to. So really, the only thing to be "gained" by showing this statistic is to try to make SxS "look" better, when in actuality it just goes to show that Sony didn't even begin to think about taking advantage of what the ExpressCard's true theoretical advantage could have been.

Power Consumption
SxS: Requires less power
P2: Requires more power
Explanation: I don't even know if this is true or not, but I do know that an EX1 has a higher power draw (12 watts) than an HVX200 (at 11.6 watts). So -- what's the point of including this line? Just to provide some baseless useless "look, we're better" line?

Capacities
SXS: 8GB, 16GB, 32GB
P2: 4GB, 8GB, 16GB
Explanation: Do I even have to point out how egregious a blatant lie this is? SxS exists in 8GB and 16GB. There is no 32GB card, nor has one even been announced. P2, on the other hand, exists today in 16GB and 32GB, and we've already been told that the 64GB card is due about the middle of 2008.

Price
SxS: 16GB = 480GBP
P2: 16GB = 600GBP
Explanation: sure makes it sound like P2's a lot more expensive, doesn't it? Only, that's another LIE. At least over here. Over here, 16GB of SxS = $900, and 16GB of P2 = $900.

Recording Times
SxS: 2.45 mins per gig @ 1080p
P2: 1 min per gig @ 1080p
Explanation: Well, yes. But again, it's so *convenient* to make the numbers look good for your side, if you just happen to avoid actually telling the *whole story*. They get 2.5x as much footage per gig because they use long-GOP MPEG-2 at 4:2:0, vs. DVCPRO-HD or AVC-Intra, both of which are intraframe 4:2:2 codecs. Pesky little details, I know... or would they be just as happy if I pointed out that you could get 15 minutes per gig of AVC-HD at 1080p? Do you think they might complain if I pointed that one out? Hmm? Same reasoning.

Dimensions
SxS smaller than P2. So? I mean, yes, it is smaller. Already people are complaining that P2's too small and you could lose it, so -- does SxS being smaller become an advantage? Or a disadvantage? Whatever.

Technology
Okay, hey, something actually factual that I won't point out holes in his table.

IT Infrastructure
SxS: The New Standard
P2: No Longer Supported
Commentary: Stupid hyperbole. "No longer supported"? What kind of a lie is that, and what kind of a fool would believe it? First of all, Dell and Sony and many other manufacturers still have PCMCIA slots on some of their laptops, and Panasonic owns the rights to make and support PCMCIA gear for now and into the future. And P2 is supported by every camera through USB and Firewire, so you'll *never* be "no longer supported". Simple scare tactics to try to scare the uninformed.

USB 2 Support
SxS: Yes
P2: No
Truth: What a lie. What's he trying to say -- that neither the P2 Store, HVX200, HPX500, HPX3000, PCD20, P2 Mobile, P2 Gear, HPX2000, HPX2100, PCD10, or any of those products has USB support? Last time I looked, they *all* did. Stupid lie. I mean, if you're gonna lie, at least try to lie in a way that you can't be blatantly proven as a liar.

Commodity Media
SxS: Yes
P2: No
Truth: This is also a lie. People want to believe that Sony will let you use commodity media, but the ground truth is that the system doesn't allow commodity media, and the manual makes no mention of allowing commodity media. The actual truth of the matter is that if you want to use memory cards in an EX1, they *must* be SxS. No commodity media is supported. Will this change? Maybe, when hell freezes over and pigs fly. Or maybe sooner. But as of now, as a factual matter of what you can buy and use today, this would be classified as a lie. There is NO commodity media you can use with an SxS product. Nor is there any official statement or press release on any Sony website or in any Sony marketing material that even hints that you could.

Availability
SxS: Sony & Sandisk
P2: Panasonic dealers only
Truth: Yet another distortion of the truth. Sandisk doesn't yet offer SxS cards, and Fuji has announced that they will offer P2 cards, so by the time Sandisk gets their cards out the Fujis might be on the market too. So either way you slice it, this is a distortion of the truth.

Future IT Expansion
SxS: Yes
P2: No
Question: What the hell is this supposed to mean? What in the world is he talking about? Panasonic can expand P2 as far as they want to go. Other manufacturers (like Duel and Addonics) are making P2-compatible add-on products. I'd put this down as another scare-tactic lie.

Modern laptop compatible
SxS: Yes
P2: No
Truth: Hmmm, better tell that to Dell, Sony, Panasonic, and other laptop manufacturers who are still offering the P2-compatible slot on their laptops. Rob Myers of Panasonic Australia went down to the local CompUSA-type store and counted 80% of the laptops offered for sale as still having PCMCIA slots. Granted no Apple Macbooks have 'em, and they're not offered on all models, but they're still available so to say "no" is just a dishonest distortion of the truth.

Fast direct-connection (non-CardBus) to host
SxS: Yes
P2: No
Q: Again, what the HELL is this supposed to mean? Non-Cardbus? Well, of course the ExpressCard doesn't have a CardBus connection. So? Should I write a table line that says "Fast direct-connection (non-ExpressCard) to host, SxS No, P2 Yes"? Would that be fair? Again, a stupid scare tactic designed to inflate the number of "pluses" for SxS, even if it has *no relevance* to you the user.

Third Party Card Manufacturers
SxS: Yes
P2: No
Truth: Again, this is a lie. P2 has just as many manufacturers (Panasonic and Fuji) as SxS has (Sony & Sandisk). And, this is just a re-wording of the earlier "availability" and "commodity media" lines, so he's trying to drag three "plus columns" out of one piece of (wrong) data. Ridiculous. Patently ridiculous.

Chips
SxS: 1 block flash memory
P2: RAIDed flash memory
Truth: I don't know if SxS is raided or not. I'd be startled if it wasn't, there's no memory on earth that runs at 100 megabytes per second that I know of. But if it's not raided, it's not. So? P2 is, and that makes it a lot faster than its underlying memory would otherwise be.

Manufacturers file-based archive structure
SxS: Yes
P2: No
Truth: again, a distortion of the truth, perhaps even a blatant lie. I assume (which is why I say "perhaps") that he's referring to that $3,000 blu-ray-disk drive that stores XDCAM files. If so, doesn't that require you to convert your 1920x1080 SxS files into 1440x1080? How is that an "archive"? In any case, Pansonic makes blu-ray data drives that can directly store the file-based footage from a P2 card, so this is yet another lie.

Now, let's try a few other stats to see how this chart would like 'em:
Installed units worldwide
SxS: 500 maybe?
P2: 60,000+

Broadcasters using each format
SxS: 1, maybe? CNN?
P2: 610+

Broadcasters who have committed to *exclusively* use each format
SxS: zero
P2: Fox, Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Raycom, Media General, and dozens or hundreds of others

Max card capacity available
SxS: 16GB
P2: 32GB

Number of cameras in the product line
SxS: 1
P2: 4

Professional codec support
SxS: No (hey, if he gets some hyperbole, why can't I?)
P2: Yes (DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO-HD, AVC-Intra)

Consumer codec support
SxS: Yes (HDV)
P2: Yes (DV)

BBC using it?
SxS: No
P2: Yes (okay, not formally announced yet, but we all know it)

Can the entire card's footage be destroyed by prematurely ejecting the card?
SxS: Yes (according to the EX1 owner's manual)
P2: No

I'm sure I could go on and on, but hopefully you can see that what was posted in that "chart" is a load of monkey crap. Complete, unadulterated, dishonest monkey crap.

 

[David Saraceno]

The blue chart that BG responds to look like a marketing brochure, not a comparison.

Even a casual look at it confirms that. Not certain why it was included or what it is supposed to be.

I wish p2 cards fit in EC/34 slots, but how is that an issue?

And I also wish there was one HD DVD standard. There isn't.

But for me at least when "comparisons" like the blue chart appear, I lose my faith in Sony marketing.

 

[Jared Meyer]

Thanks very much Barry for taking the time to go through that. I figured it could have been skewed a bit but the details make all the difference in the world.

 

[Jared Meyer]

The blue chart that BG responds to look like a marketing brochure, not a comparison.

Even a casual look at it confirms that. Not certain why it was included or what it is supposed to be.

I wish p2 cards fit in EC/34 slots, but how is that an issue?

And I also wish there was one HD DVD standard. There isn't.

But for me at least when "comparisons" like the blue chart appear, I lose my faith in Sony marketing.

I ran across it here

http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=171

in doing research on the EX-1. Not knowing very much about P2 or SxS I wasn't sure whether it was comparison or propaganda. And the author of the review doesn't say who compiled it. I guess it's already obvious to the more experienced eye (not me) but given Barry's workthrough it is definitely unfairly skewed towards SxS and therefore probably from Sony.

 

[Barry_Green]

I would certainly expect it to be from Sony's marketing department, and if so I have no problem with the strongly worded language I used.

If for some reason it was actually compiled by an unpaid individual (i.e., not a malicious marketing employee), then I would think that words such as "lie" and "liar" may be too harsh, but whoever compiled that was, at best, misrepresenting and distorting the truth and yes, some of those claims are lies. Is it the fault of the guy who made it? Depends on where he got his information from. If he's just channelling whatever the Sony marketing people told him, then he was used as a stooge. If he did it actively on his own, then he set out to deliberately mislead people. Either way, the factual errors in that chart are outlandish.

 

[mikkowilson]

I'm almost certain that I saw that chart on Sony's product site for SxS (or some directly related site) a while back ... but it's not there now, so I can't confirm for sure.

- Mikko

 

[David Jimerson]

I would certainly expect it to be from Sony's marketing department, and if so I have no problem with the strongly worded language I used.

If for some reason it was actually compiled by an unpaid individual (i.e., not a malicious marketing employee), then I would think that words such as "lie" and "liar" may be too harsh, but whoever compiled that was, at best, misrepresenting and distorting the truth and yes, some of those claims are lies. Is it the fault of the guy who made it? Depends on where he got his information from. If he's just channelling whatever the Sony marketing people told him, then he was used as a stooge. If he did it actively on his own, then he set out to deliberately mislead people. Either way, the factual errors in that chart are outlandish.

Well, at least it wasn't "designed to ruffle any feathers." Thank heavens!

 

[Barry_Green]

It wasn't. It was designed to deliberately mislead the customer.

 

[David Jimerson]

Just repeating what the guy said in his article where he posted the chart originally.

 

[drdimento]

What about that totally NEW camera that Panasonic is coming out with that was at the GV Expo show in Washington that uses SD cards? And for UNDER $2000 that uses some kind of AAC1 or the like file format and is absolutely amazing video. Any one know how this will compare to the HVX200? We loved the picture but were concered about the plain jane SD card (even though Panasonic recommends this special one that gets more video per/card) and I don't know about anyone else, but to date I've personally I've lost 3 SD cards and 4 USB drives to failures. Thoughts?

 

[SPZ]

I can confirm I also saw that chart on sony's website a while ago.

Advantage of the expresscard technology, for me, ends up in this:

1- Compatible directly with Macbook Pro's and Macbooks

I like Apple apps. The duel adapter seems to bring issues to the workflow. I currently own a Powerbook and a Powermac, and i stick to my powerbook mainly to avoid adapter failure in a critical situation.

For PC users this should be a no problem, tough.

And P2 is fantastic. Quote me on this. 2 years working with it non stop and not a single issue untill now ( Knock on wood). SxS is a new format and needs to be proven in the professional world, while P2 is more than established.

 

[Barry_Green]

What about that totally NEW camera that Panasonic is coming out with that was at the GV Expo show in Washington that uses SD cards? And for UNDER $2000 that uses some kind of AAC1 or the like file format and is absolutely amazing video.

The format would be AVC-HD. Under $2,000 -- probably the HSC1U. Yes the pictures are fantastic -- but they're only 60i, so of less interest to most of us here.

Any one know how this will compare to the HVX200?

If you're talking about the HSC1U, it doesn't compare in any way to the HVX. There's only 1080/60i, there's practically no menu controls, no options, no variable frame rates, no microphone input, etc. It's a micro-cam designed to be tiny. If it had 24p I bet it'd make a decent companion cam to an HVX (since it's supposed to be tweaked to provide the same colorimetry) but without 24p it's kind of an also-ran.

The interesting one to me was the DVX-looking one that was shown at Interbee (under a locked glass case). If that thing delivers 24p from three CCDs and is the true heir to the DVX, but records to standard cheap SD cards... well, that'll be interesting!

 

[drdimento]

Thanks Barry. "Ping" I believe this is exactly the camera I saw. It looked like an 80% version of the DVC60 and also came in a handheld version/format. And I believe that I do remember the designer of the camera saying something about a limited format. So, that's the one and I recall walking away saying to myself, "great device, stunning image, but not applicable to either our broadcast or film applications."

Thanks for the follow up and info.

 

[Seetukka]

Is it true that offer is only for ntsc cameras and not pal?? Even if I buy it from the U.S? I´m coming from finland to buy a hvx from New York. I contacted B&h and they said that it´s only for ntsc cameras. That sucks and sucks bad...

 

[Barry_Green]

This offer is from Panasonic USA. Panasonic USA doesn't sell PAL cameras.

 

[Seetukka]

Damn. That sucks. I hope that Panasonic europe will reply that offer with some offer of their own very soon...