DSR450 vs. HVX200 Final Decision . . .
- Thread starter Ralph Oshiro
- Start date
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
I was thinking about the SDI board, but what would I record to?
Dino
Veteran
Rezfactor,
Now I know why you chose a camera with 65db SN and good sensitivity--saw
your streaming samples on your site, all night scenes, very nice looking footage.
If you added the SDI output, you could record on a 4:2:2 format, tape or a drive, like the uncompressed Bonsai Drive, if you thought that would be beneficial for green screen. If 4:2:2 is really important, then an SDX-900, with its new, lower price point makes some sense.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
Now I know why you chose a camera with 65db SN and good sensitivity--saw
your streaming samples on your site, all night scenes, very nice looking footage.
If you added the SDI output, you could record on a 4:2:2 format, tape or a drive, like the uncompressed Bonsai Drive, if you thought that would be beneficial for green screen. If 4:2:2 is really important, then an SDX-900, with its new, lower price point makes some sense.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Oh my god! That footage on my site is SO old! But thanks for the compliments! A lot of it was shot with a crummy VX2000. I'm guessing that the DSR450 is just as fast, but with a LOT less noise. Finally, someone gets it! Can't wait to get this camera out on the street one night. Been so damn busy at work.
Yeah, I looked at Bonsai's site once. I was just wondering out loud, since the SDI board isn't that expensive (about $1,200). Don't think I really need it. I saw some of Simon's SDI 4:2:2 vs. DV 4:1:1 test frames, and the difference wasn't THAT dramatic. Part of why I went with this camera was to keep my simple and easy DV workflow anyway. Thanks for your input, Dino!
Yeah, I looked at Bonsai's site once. I was just wondering out loud, since the SDI board isn't that expensive (about $1,200). Don't think I really need it. I saw some of Simon's SDI 4:2:2 vs. DV 4:1:1 test frames, and the difference wasn't THAT dramatic. Part of why I went with this camera was to keep my simple and easy DV workflow anyway. Thanks for your input, Dino!
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Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Another one:
Applied Magic Bullet Movie Looks' plug-in: Buffalo
Applied Magic Bullet Movie Looks' plug-in: Buffalo
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Some things on my desk (about 10 footcandles) . . .
Uncorrected (detail "off," DCC "off").
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Color Reversal.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Bleach Bypass.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Punchy.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: White Diffusion Max.
Uncorrected (detail "off," DCC "off").
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Color Reversal.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Bleach Bypass.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Punchy.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: White Diffusion Max.
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Dino
Veteran
Rezfactor, I like those plug-ins, especially the oh so popular "bleach bypass". How do you think the 450 looks without detail? I think it looks pretty good compared to an SD camera with 520K pixels. The screen grabs certainly seem to have good natural resolution for SD. Could you do a screen grab of your
model head shot with bleach bypass applied?
What is the "buffalo" look? Seems like a good plug-in for head shots, nice warm saturation. I like the fact that the 450 gives plenty of gray scale in the
shadow area to work with in CC--are you using film gamma 1? What I don't
like about the film gammas is that nothing goes over 100 ire. I'd like to be
using all the latitude available with peaks at 109 and setting the knee higher
than 80 or 85 ire. I had the same issue with Sony's film gamma setup cards
for the BVW-D600/DVW-700WS.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
model head shot with bleach bypass applied?
What is the "buffalo" look? Seems like a good plug-in for head shots, nice warm saturation. I like the fact that the 450 gives plenty of gray scale in the
shadow area to work with in CC--are you using film gamma 1? What I don't
like about the film gammas is that nothing goes over 100 ire. I'd like to be
using all the latitude available with peaks at 109 and setting the knee higher
than 80 or 85 ire. I had the same issue with Sony's film gamma setup cards
for the BVW-D600/DVW-700WS.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Yes, I am using FILM gamma "1." Plus a bunch of detail settings that Simon has on his site. Not sure I'm all that comfortable with those detail settings though. I suppose, if I'm going to uprez, I want less detail, right? But it just feels a bit too soft for me. I too enjoy the grayscale that the DSR's film gamma setting gives. And I so hear you on that 109 IRE thing. That's EXACTLY how I want to set this camera up--with a +100 IRE setting. Don't quite know how to set that up, but I think you can, can't you, despite the film gamma setting? "Buffalo" is just another one of the presets in Magic Bullet Look Suite.Dino said:
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Night Exteriors--Rodeo Drive at Magic Hour Series:
Sony DSR450: FILM gamma 1; f/1.8; 0dB gain; 3200K preset; 24PA; shutter off; detail off.
Uncorrected
Sony DSR450: FILM gamma 1; f/1.8; 0dB gain; 3200K preset; 24PA; shutter off; detail off.
Uncorrected
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Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Sony DSR450: FILM gamma 1; f/1.8; 0dB gain; 3200K preset; 24PA; shutter off; detail off.
Uncorrected
Uncorrected
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Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Sony DSR450: FILM gamma 1; f/1.8; 0dB gain; 3200K preset; 24PA; shutter off; detail off.
Uncorrected
Uncorrected
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Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Sony DSR450: FILM gamma 1; f/1.8; 0dB gain; 3200K preset; 24PA; shutter off; detail off.
Uncorrected
Shooting directly into a mercury vapor street light, with f-stop wide open--no smear, just some lens flare.
Uncorrected
Shooting directly into a mercury vapor street light, with f-stop wide open--no smear, just some lens flare.
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Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Sony DSR450: FILM gamma 1; f/1.8; 0dB gain; 3200K preset; 24PA; shutter off; detail off.
Uncorrected.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Bistro.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Bleach Bypass.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Max Contrast.
Uncorrected.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Bistro.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Bleach Bypass.
Magic Bullet Look Suite plug-in applied: Max Contrast.
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Cheesesailor77
Veteran
i'm REALLY no expert, an i'm not completely sure what i'm looking at, but the uncorrected footage looks quite unapealling to me.
With the bleach bypass it gets better (crushed blacks i guess) but it looks really video-ee after adding "film gamma"
have u shot anything and added a quick standered correction that you've found adds a nice rich film look you could share?
not to knock your purchase, I'm sure after all your research you got exactly what you wanted.
With the bleach bypass it gets better (crushed blacks i guess) but it looks really video-ee after adding "film gamma"
have u shot anything and added a quick standered correction that you've found adds a nice rich film look you could share?
not to knock your purchase, I'm sure after all your research you got exactly what you wanted.
Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
From what I understand, the film gamma setting gives you the most latitude and the "fattest" grayscales. The uncorrected images lack contrast, but this seems to be the optimum image to later apply the most effective color grading. I agree, the video straight out of the DSR450 doesn't seem quite as "filmy" as my Panasonic DVX100, in my opinion. I think Panasonic really has mastered that look for its products. But the "flatness" in the original images appears to be very similar to uncorrected images that I've shot straight out of SDX900s and HDW-F900s, at least in my limited experience with those two cameras.
The trick for me has always been: How do you first acquire an image that later takes best to color grading without picking up extreme amounts of noise? Well, I surmised that you have to start with the lowest noise image in the first place. When I first got my Sony VX2000 years ago, I immediately went out and shot tons of beauty footage. But the moment I went to do some color correction on the footage I had gotten, the images just got uncontrollably noisy.
So, I agree. The ungraded footage isn't too stunning in all cases. But I think the point is, is to acquire a raw image that has the greatest grayscale (latitude) so that you can make the most of those base "bits" to later color grade to taste. I'm only just beginning to experiment with this camera, and since not very many people seem to own this camera, there simply isn't that much published about it and its various menu settings. In a few months, I'm sure I'll have worked out some favorite "recipes" for getting the best "filmlook" out of this camera.
The trick for me has always been: How do you first acquire an image that later takes best to color grading without picking up extreme amounts of noise? Well, I surmised that you have to start with the lowest noise image in the first place. When I first got my Sony VX2000 years ago, I immediately went out and shot tons of beauty footage. But the moment I went to do some color correction on the footage I had gotten, the images just got uncontrollably noisy.
So, I agree. The ungraded footage isn't too stunning in all cases. But I think the point is, is to acquire a raw image that has the greatest grayscale (latitude) so that you can make the most of those base "bits" to later color grade to taste. I'm only just beginning to experiment with this camera, and since not very many people seem to own this camera, there simply isn't that much published about it and its various menu settings. In a few months, I'm sure I'll have worked out some favorite "recipes" for getting the best "filmlook" out of this camera.
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Dino
Veteran
The reality is that most people have never seen uncorrected film stocks. Whether watching film source on TV, or in a theater, color correction has been applied in the lab or telecine suite. Even if a film source had not been color corrected for theatrical release, a release print will not have the same look as the original film stock. It will be more contrasty and grainy at the very least.
Ten years ago, when I took delivery of my Sony BVW-D600's, Sony came out
with Kodak film stock emulations that had to do with detail and matirix settiings, they later came out with film gamma set up cards that worked with
600's and DVW-700's. I sent these setup cards out on rental and while some
DP's used the film stock emulations and film gammas, most stayed with the
"house" setup card, which was CCIR-709, the worldwide DTV/HD colorimetry standard, and some preferred the "High Saturation" card. The film stock emulation cards were meant to be used as a base for color correction. Of
course, in those days, there weren't inexpensive NLE's and simple, inexpensive color correction plug-ins.
What can be seen in the uncorrected screen grabs that Rezfactor shot is imagery that does not have video artifacts such as noise, half lining, detail
edge ringing and has lots of gray scale. If you look at the highlights in the
last screen grabs, you see that the film look plug-ins actually reduce latitude
and highlight detail.
The question that occurs to me is, "what is film look?" Is it very rich blacks,
warm, highly saturated colors, contrasty blacks and whites or pastelly, soft
muted tones? The answer is all of the above. Film has the latitude and flexibility to be anything the colorist/director/DP want it to be.
If we define the in-camera recording of a DVX-100 as "more filmic", then we
need to define what would make it so. Obviously, for motion, it's 24P, which
other cameras like the DSR-450 do well. For a still image, my guess is that
it is a saturated, rich look that more equates to the look of final color corrected
film transfers.
Anybody who knows how to use a sophisticated DSP camera can get looks of
their choosing in-camera, but this means that they are committed to that look,
giving less flexibility in post. I have no doubt that if a DSR-450 is put next to
a DVX-100, both shooting a Macbeth color chart and monitored with a waveform and vectorscope, a qualified DIT could match the DVX-100. Plus,
the 450 would offer low noise, natural sharpness of million pixel imagers without having to depend as much on electronic detail circuits and benefit from the shallower depth of field of 2/3" imagers.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
Ten years ago, when I took delivery of my Sony BVW-D600's, Sony came out
with Kodak film stock emulations that had to do with detail and matirix settiings, they later came out with film gamma set up cards that worked with
600's and DVW-700's. I sent these setup cards out on rental and while some
DP's used the film stock emulations and film gammas, most stayed with the
"house" setup card, which was CCIR-709, the worldwide DTV/HD colorimetry standard, and some preferred the "High Saturation" card. The film stock emulation cards were meant to be used as a base for color correction. Of
course, in those days, there weren't inexpensive NLE's and simple, inexpensive color correction plug-ins.
What can be seen in the uncorrected screen grabs that Rezfactor shot is imagery that does not have video artifacts such as noise, half lining, detail
edge ringing and has lots of gray scale. If you look at the highlights in the
last screen grabs, you see that the film look plug-ins actually reduce latitude
and highlight detail.
The question that occurs to me is, "what is film look?" Is it very rich blacks,
warm, highly saturated colors, contrasty blacks and whites or pastelly, soft
muted tones? The answer is all of the above. Film has the latitude and flexibility to be anything the colorist/director/DP want it to be.
If we define the in-camera recording of a DVX-100 as "more filmic", then we
need to define what would make it so. Obviously, for motion, it's 24P, which
other cameras like the DSR-450 do well. For a still image, my guess is that
it is a saturated, rich look that more equates to the look of final color corrected
film transfers.
Anybody who knows how to use a sophisticated DSP camera can get looks of
their choosing in-camera, but this means that they are committed to that look,
giving less flexibility in post. I have no doubt that if a DSR-450 is put next to
a DVX-100, both shooting a Macbeth color chart and monitored with a waveform and vectorscope, a qualified DIT could match the DVX-100. Plus,
the 450 would offer low noise, natural sharpness of million pixel imagers without having to depend as much on electronic detail circuits and benefit from the shallower depth of field of 2/3" imagers.
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
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Ralph Oshiro
Veteran
Great post, Dino! I remember all the hoopla when those set-up cards came out for the D600s. Unfortunately, I never got to play with them at the time. Recently, the show I work for had been renting SDX900s and HDWF900s for certain special events as B-roll cameras to complement the standard 60i BVW400As we use to cover our show. I was the one sent to Plus 8 Digital to talk with the staff DITs to discuss the "look" we wanted. All I told them was, "give me the set-up that gives me the maximum dynamic range."
I did some exposure tests at Plus 8 with the DIT, and shot a model in both lit interiors and daylight exteriors. When the footage got back, many in the office also complained about the "look" coming right out of the cameras. Jeff (Dino) has made some great points in his post above, and I think he adds a lot of savvy experience to this thread. Keep posting!
I did some exposure tests at Plus 8 with the DIT, and shot a model in both lit interiors and daylight exteriors. When the footage got back, many in the office also complained about the "look" coming right out of the cameras. Jeff (Dino) has made some great points in his post above, and I think he adds a lot of savvy experience to this thread. Keep posting!
Dino
Veteran
Rezfactor,
I was just expanding on your point about color correction. It's obvious that your next mission is to shoot with the DVX-100 and DSR-450 side by side and post some screen grabs--all in the name of science, of course!
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com
I was just expanding on your point about color correction. It's obvious that your next mission is to shoot with the DVX-100 and DSR-450 side by side and post some screen grabs--all in the name of science, of course!
Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
www.ssv.com