Who's a vegetarian?

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Anybody remember Jim Fix? He was THE running advocate a few years ago. He dropped dead during a jog. Stuff happens. It doesn't matter how healthy you are, everybody dies sooner or later. Sure, the grossly overweight guy is more likely to have a heart attack than the guy with a proper diet and exercise. But the fat guy is less likely to get killed by a car, because he's too lazy to get his fat ass off the couch.
 
This has turned into a rather interesting thread.

Of course naturally when someone introduces the concept of topics such as morality and then further tries to rationalize it through logic, he/she fails to see the fundamental problem of this approach, and that problem lies in that fact that these topic et al are based upon relativism's.

Thus two sides can both put fourth logically clear arguments that both reach correct (mathematical) conclusions, however in the process create a paradox whereby two polar states appear to both be logically true.

Again this paradox is a not a real paradox, merely one that is produced because the base definition is relative, and the two polar states are merely working with two different sets of definition of the concept depending upon their relativity to it.

In the end you have to accept that it is not about rational conclusions, but rather due to the RELATIVE moral values that one holds to or ascribes to.


In a nutshell :

I have my moral values you have your moral values, I respect your moral values so please respect my moral values, I do not force my moral values upon you, do not force upon me your moral values.

In Simple terms:

“you say tamato, I say tomato”
 
Anhar Miah said:
Of course naturally when someone introduces the concept of topics such as morality and then further tries to rationalize it through logic, he/she fails to see the fundamental problem of this approach, and that problem lies in that fact that these topic et al are based upon relativism's.
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If that happens to be aimed in my direction I feel I should point out that we were not discussing whether or not it was immoral to eat meat..but whether or not it was an issue of morality whether or not one ate meat. There is a difference, and the issue of relativism wouldn't come into play until an individual choice was made. In terms of our debate, it was a moot point whether one thought it was moral or immoral, so relativism played no part.


EDITED TO ADD:
Alright - I mean it this time... I'm staying out of this thread.
:)
 
No Luis Caffesse, it was not directly at you, just a big generalistion.

As for the case "Is it a moral case that one ate meat or not",

quite clearly it is a moral case, the reason being is that

(a) Biologically we are most certainly able to eat meat.
(b) We also posses the "conscienceless" that differentiates as from animals whom only can act upon instinct.

Therefore we have both the capacity to eat meat BUT at the same time the capacity to CHOOSE to not eat meat.

It is that capacity of "Choice" that brings it into the context of morality, or moral values.
 
There are several levels of "conscienceness", and of course animals occupy very low levels for sure. But it doesn't change that fact that at present we occupy the highest level of conscienceness.

It is because of this huge gap, we can not apply the same notions of choice to animals.

That of course would change if I could start playing chess or talk about the finer merits of codec comparisions between HDCAM and HDV with my friends dog :)

So therefore as I said before it boils down, relative moral values.
 
Anhar Miah said:
There are several levels of "conscienceness", and of course animals occupy very low levels for sure. But it doesn't change that fact that at present we occupy the highest level of conscienceness.
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Have ya noticed some of the bottom feeders walking the streets these days? I'm not entirely sure about that.
 
Animals are most certainly conscious, and sentient. No doubt about it.

They don't match us in intellect, or in apprehension.

A lot of vegetarians argue for their choice based upon their understanding of health, and biology. And these are not morally relatavistic bases: either humans are physiologically suited to omnivorism, or we're not...and every last scrap of evidence, indicates that we are. Either moderate quantities of animal protein are nutritionally useful to us, or they're not...and the fact is...they are.

Now, if one veers away from biology, sure, yeah, one may construct whatever particular moralistic castle-in-the-air one pleases (mine has gold-plated faucets in the bathrooms, and an Olympic-sized pool).

Which is why omnivorism is morally neutral, once biology is left behind. Since anyone's morality on the subject has equal weight with anyone else's, no one's is meaningful, at all.
 
Look guys, religion is not an allowed topic on DVXUser, and in fact this whole discussion is dancing with the line where we shut threads down.
 
Capt Quirk said:
Sure, the grossly overweight guy is more likely to have a heart attack than the guy with a proper diet and exercise. But the fat guy is less likely to get killed by a car, because he's too lazy to get his fat ass off the couch.
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Why aren't fat people healthier? They spend every day carrying all that weight around....should be good for ya.

Folks in training routinely walk around with ankle weights, wrist weights, strap on 80 lb backpacks...

Fat people have all that stuff built-in.

:)
 
C'mon guys... jump back from the religion issues! This thread has been very interesting to me and I'm glad that it reached a point of intelligent discourse. As this thread has grown I've developed new respect for members that weren't even on my "respect map" before... and higher respect for those that I already respected. I can honestly say that no person posting to this thread has moved down on my list... only up.

In all fairness to J.H. I also must conceed that most vegetarians I have known have not been athletically impressive... and sometimes haven't appeared overly healthy... whether or not they were is unproven either way.

As a side-note... since health and nature has been discussed... my roommate gets into this natural foods diet every now and then... where you can eat anything you want so long as it wasn't processed in ANY way... as in all the chicken breasts, steak, rice, beans, WHATEVER... as long as it's not processed in anyway. When this guy does that diet for about 6 months he turns into superman every time... He looks like a Bowflex ad... but MAN is that diet ever hard to stick to! But I'm just saying... if you want to know how to get in shape with just a little working out... try eating like THAT.

I have this black shirt that his big yellow letters across the front saying THINK... and really that's my main message in life... I don't even care that much what conclusion you come to... as long as you respect your association and consider logic.
 
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Statistically, Vegans fair about as well as the lard eaters as far as mortality.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/3/533S

But as Disraeli said "There are three kind of lies: Lies, damned lies and statistics"

Vegetarians are healthy at the same rate as balanced diet lean meat eaters. There is some evidence that lean meat is essential as to brain development though. zinc and amino acids consumption is difficult, but not impossible, to replicate in a vegetarian lifestyle. The consumption of phylates decreases zinc absorption and they are found in plant life so it takes discipline. But you lower cholesterol significantly as a vegearian and there are other circulatory benefits.

Morality is an interesting question and since morality moves with cultural norms, I wonder if a paradigm shift is occurring. As said, 20 years ago this conversation doesn't exist. In the end I always think a good rule is ones personal morality ends at the tip of their nose. Societal morality is of course something entirely different and is codified in law.

I would like to be a vegetarian, indignantly looking down on the shlubs that can't resit the call of the chesseburger. There is something noble in it. An almost calvanisitc attempt to secure salvation.

I just like ribs and burgers too much. And if I am going to take a moral stand, then I need to get rid of leather shoes, belts, car seats, chairs ... Maybe I need to then stop riding horses, setting mouse traps, taking prescription drugs. More power to those who do though, I think it is commendable.
 
Gee, don't go dragging consistency into it...

bosindy said:
I would like to be a vegetarian, indignantly looking down on the shlubs that can't resit the call of the chesseburger. There is something noble in it.
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Well...a lot of vegetarians sure seem to think so...

bosindy said:
Maybe I need to then stop riding horses, setting mouse traps, taking prescription drugs. More power to those who do though, I think it is commendable.
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I guess it's commendable...until horses start going to slaughter, for lack of riders, and let's hope it's only your own property that gets over-run by mice...and I'm not going to have to help foot the bill for the consequences of your* decision to skip taking your prescription meds, am I...?



*Meaning your in the figurative, not the literal sense.
 
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Very few people have a complex understanding of nutrition - vegetarians and omnivores alike.
How many of you sit down and think of the nutritions your body needs to properly function before preparing a meal?
Unfortunately most of the vegetarians I have encountered so far, either were from the "meat eating is wrong, put some fries on my cheese pizza!" party or where simply hoping to avoid getting fat by eating salad with fat free dressing (yes, mostly girls)...
So most of them didn´t differ much from the meateating masses they were somehow oposed to when it came to knowlegde about nutrition.
Nevertheless I still find it kind of funny when meateaters talk of the three or four vegetarians they know and how weak and sick they look, implying malnutrition as a consequence of a vegetarian diet.
Ever been to a beach lately?
How many of the obese children there do you think are raised vegetarian?
(Granted, vegetarians only are a small part of the population, so meeting a meateater/omnivore is more likely than meeting a vegetarian or vegan...)
Hmm, and those people eating mostly at McD`s, BK and a like . - probably the bad lighting that makes them look sick and weak...
I wonder why nobody brought up the vitamine B12 issue so far, I guess the food industry puts it into everything because they care so much about the vegetarians getting a complete diet...
Another classic was brought up nevertheless: human teeth. I dare everyone bringing this up as a pro carnivore argument to try to take a bite of a chunk of freshly shot deer (unskinned) and look how far he gets...
The views on morality IMHO only touched the surface of wether it is a matter of morality or simple preference to eat meat or not.
The debate has been going on in parts of ethical philosophy ever since Peter Singer puplished "Animal Liberation" in ´75.
Comming back to this tread:
MattinSTL was concerned about veggies on this board being intimidated by the tone this discussion had, well anyone living meatfree longer than a couple of months will be used to all the joking and some of the jokes here were really funny:beer:
Anyone willing to learn more on how nutrition affects human health, I can only recomend reading "The China Study" by T.Colin Campell.
To answer the original question of this thread:
I quit the unhealthy and moraly questionable vegetarian lifestyle I was living for over 10 years.
I´ve been vegan for 5 years now:evil:
 
Spartacus said:
Another classic was brought up nevertheless: human teeth. I dare everyone bringing this up as a pro carnivore argument to try to take a bite of a chunk of freshly shot deer (unskinned) and look how far he gets...
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Cool. We can have a contest. One person can attempt to bite into a deer. The other can attempt to bite into a coconut.

:)

Meanwhile, the rest of us can munch on some carrots or birds, whichever floats their boats.
 
Spartacus said:
Nevertheless I still find it kind of funny when meateaters talk of the three or four vegetarians they know and how weak and sick they look, implying malnutrition as a consequence of a vegetarian diet.
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You mean, like how I mentioned that the vegetarians I know, fall in a spectrum from the sickly-weak to the adonis-like fit?


Spartacus said:
Hmm, and those people eating mostly at McD`s, BK and a like . - probably the bad lighting that makes them look sick and weak...
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Crap food, is crap food, vegetarian or omnivorist, regardless. McD's, BK, etc are not examples of *any* kind of good or healthy food.

Spartacus said:
I wonder why nobody brought up the vitamine B12 issue so far, I guess the food industry puts it into everything because they care so much about the vegetarians getting a complete diet...
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I think it works as a preservative, doesn't it?

Spartacus said:
Another classic was brought up nevertheless: human teeth. I dare everyone bringing this up as a pro carnivore argument to try to take a bite of a chunk of freshly shot deer (unskinned) and look how far he gets...
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Dentition is proof that we are omnivores, not carnivores. GI-tract chemistry and structure, too. Maybe you might try responding to the arguments that people *have* made, instead of arguments that nobody here, has made...?

Spartacus said:
The views on morality IMHO only touched the surface of wether it is a matter of morality or simple preference to eat meat or not.
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*shrug* if you want to make it about morality, fine, for you it's about morality. For some of us, it's only a question of biology. And seasoning.

Spartacus said:
MattinSTL was concerned about veggies on this board being intimidated by the tone this discussion had, well anyone living meatfree longer than a couple of months will be used to all the joking and some of the jokes here were really funny:beer:
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Vegetarianism: Opportunity to Learn New Jokes.

Spartacus said:
I´ve been vegan for 5 years now:evil:
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Hope it's working beautifully for you.
 
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MattinSTL said:
I can honestly say that no person posting to this thread has moved down on my list... only up.
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Good to know :)

Luis Caffesse said:
What does it say about someone when they don't blow their nose, or brush their teeth?
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If you don't blow your nose in Japan, that says you have a good control of your body :D It is rude to blow your nose in public.

I think it's a good example that alot of things just depend on the way you grow up. Not everything is a moral issue (talking in general, not about blowing you nose).
 
Nomis said:
If you don't blow your nose in Japan, that says you have a good control of your body :D It is rude to blow your nose in public.

I think it's a good example that alot of things just depend on the way you grow up. Not everything is a moral issue (talking in general, not about blowing you nose).
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My original point still stands.
No one ever said 'moral issues' were universal.
Clearly blowing your nose in Japan says something about someone, as you pointed out.
If what you're saying is in fact the custom there - then it seems pretty obvious that NOT blowing your nose in public is the 'right' thing to do.

All I'm saying is that its not that difficult to see every choice as a moral choice.
I never said they would be universal.

I know I know...I keep saying I'm going to drop out of this thread...but you guys are like the mafia...you keep pulling me back in.
 
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