New sony cam follows our beloved HVX

[tnle2]

Besides, who's to say that Panasonic won't design the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component? As in, look at how a miniSD card works -- it's a small card that can be plugged into a fullsize SD adapter.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208081

Why couldn't Panasonic do something like that? The answer is: of course they could. They could make ExpressCard media that fits in a P2-sized shell for use in the roughly 50,000 P2 systems out there (yes, about 3x as many P2 systems as there are XDCAM systems) and have a removable ExpressCard core that could be used in the new laptops.

Have they announced such a system? No, but they'd be stupid to not be thinking about it.

They won't do it because Panasonic has already invested too much in convincing a lot of people that P2 is the future and is here to stay. Making an ExpressCard-to-P2 adapter would basically be saying the opposite. Going forward, it wouldn't even make sense to make P2 equipment anymore because you're putting a faster media (ExpressCards) into a slower interface (Cardbus-P2). So the repercussions for the P2 system would be huge if Panasonic did something like that!

P2 is not looking good at this point when even Barry says Panasonic would be stupid for not looking into an ExpressCard to P2 adapter.

 

[Barry_Green]

P2 is not looking good? To who? Looks pretty good to the over 300 broadcast organizations using it. Looks good to the major networks who are already using it. Looks awfully good to sports programs at the major universities (like Clemson) that are already using it. Looks pretty good to the over 35,000 customers who are using HVXs worldwide. Considering there are three P2 camcorders to every XDCAM camera, I'd say it's looking just fine.

They won't do it because Panasonic has already invested too much in convincing a lot of people that P2 is the future and is here to stay.

It is. And it is. I don't get what you're saying. The P2 form factor stays the same, it stays 100% compatible, and it just adds more capability. How is that a problem?

Making an ExpressCard-to-P2 adapter would basically be saying the opposite

How? I mean, if you were saying that a company was making a blu-ray camcorder and preaching that it was the best format and it was here to stay and it was a better solution than solid-state, and then they suddenly started making a solid-state system too, then I could see your point. But to continue to use solid-state memory recording in a 100% compatible system, and (to pacify those who want an expresscard solution) to offer a system that can work in both existing cardbus or future expresscard systems, that works 100% compatibly with every piece of existing P2 gear, and that all future P2 gear stays fully compatible with all prior gear -- sorry, I don't see that as a problem at all.

Going forward, it wouldn't even make sense to make P2 equipment anymore because you're putting a faster media (ExpressCards) into a slower interface (Cardbus-P2).

Okay, this makes no sense whatsoever. Yes ExpressCard's interface is faster than CardBus's -- so? The underlying memory is nowhere near fast enough to take advantage of the speed CardBus is capable of. CardBus handles 133 megabytes per second; a RAIDed P2 card runs at 80 megabytes per second. Just because someone puts memory in an ExpressCard form factor, that doesn't mean that it's going to be faster! There is absolutely nothing incongruous about putting an expresscard insert in a PC Card form factor.

So the repercussions for the P2 system would be huge if Panasonic did something like that!

I simply cannot connect with what you're talking about. I'm saying that they would retain 100% backward and forward compatibility. How would there be *any* repercussions?

Repercussions come about when you sell someone a proprietary-media system like XDCAM, and then you abandon it to come out with an incompatible system like XDCAM-HD, and then do you abandon it to come out with two incompatible systems like XDCAM-EX and XDCAM-MPEG422? What about when Sony inevitably migrates to AVC -- what happens to all your existing, non-AVC-compliant XDCAM equipment? Repercussions come about when you ask customers to abandon their existing equipment infrastructure. That's absolutely the OPPOSITE approach Panasonic is taking. When Sony adds a new format like their 50-megabit MPEG-422 system, it requires new hardware that makes your existing hardware incompatible. When Panasonic adds a new format like AVC-Intra, it works with all your existing hardware -- your cards, your readers, everything. They provide software updates and card slots to support that future expansion. If they were to do what I'm suggesting (an ExpressCard slot inside a CardBus housing) they would be providing 100% compatibility backwards and forwards throughout their product line.

I just don't fathom how someone could twist that into being a "bad thing".

 

[harddrive]

ExpressCard is the obvious successor to Cardbus, yes. But does that make it an obvious successor to P2? .......... I really don't get this attitude of "oooh, expresscard is common in PCs so that means P2 is obsolete" mentality that Sony's trying to push. It's ridiculous.

I can't speak for Sony, but earlier I posted: " ........whereas ExpressCard and CF are still very current architectures in new equipment, then Cardbus (on which P2 is based) is obsolescent. And note very carefully the use of the word "obsolescent", NOT "obsolete". They mean very different things. P2 is not obsolete, but Cardbus *IS* obsolescent.

And in the past, being able to read P2 cards with just a computer, no drives, no separate boxes, decks, etc has been (rightly, IMO) hailed as a big plus point for the format. But now that accolade has been snatched by Sony, it becomes "ridiculous" to see it as an advantage. Hmmm.

Besides, who's to say that Panasonic won't design the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component?...........Why couldn't Panasonic do something like that? The answer is: of course they could.

I really, really hope they do. That would obviously be very good news for all the existing owners of P2 cameras. (ExpressCards being inherently much cheaper, apart from fitting directly into modern PCs.) But what about such as myself, yet to upgrade? The obvious question then becomes why buy a P2 camera, if I can get an ExpressCard one instead? All else equal, of course.

Ok, I may want an HPX500, or an HPC2000 for the camera front end, media aside, but it now makes me wish for the same camera with 4/5 SxS slots instead of P2 slots. Having to use adaptors, a separate one per slot, may work, but how much simpler to just plug the SxS cards directly into the camera!

Canon won't go SxS, they're going AVC-HD. Standard SD memory cards, or mini-DVD discs. JVC hasn't expressed any interest in going to any type of memory-card recording yet.

Surely AVC-HD could be as easily recorded to SxS as SD? And SD cards are also far cheaper than P2, as well as being directed supported by many modern computers.

And in the last brochure I received from JVC I'm sure they mentioned an expectation to extend into solid state in due course. The SxS announcement may have brought that forward. Who knows?

 

[Simon Wyndham]

Considering there are three P2 camcorders to every XDCAM camera

Bary, ever heard the saying about statistics? Comparing P2 including the HVX200, a prosumer camera, which is a much larger market than full size shoulder mounted cameras, to the current XDCAM is rather misleading to say the least. The real comparision will be when the EX is released. Then we'll see how rate of sales compare like for like.

and then do you abandon it to come out with two incompatible systems like XDCAM-EX and XDCAM-MPEG422?

Woah there Barry. A NLE that can read DVCpro cannot necessarily read DVCpro50 or DVCpro100. Now Panasonic have also got AVC Intra with solid plans to release even more versions of that in the future! So I'm afraid that argument about Sony introducing codecs doesn't wash. At least they are using a common compression scheme.

When Panasonic adds a new format like AVC-Intra, it works with all your existing hardware -- your cards, your readers, everything.

The NLE still needs to be reprogrammed to take a new codec just like additional XDCAM codecs. Whats the point of being able to transfer your footage if you can't actually edit it?

inevitably migrates to AVC

They won't. They don't have a need to as it doesn't offer any major advantages other than making P2 card storage go further. Apart from that there aren't many other tangible benefits to it.

 

[David Jimerson]

I don't get why this would be a threat to anyone who owns and operates an HVX. Your HVX isn't going to disappear when this hits the market. It won't make it work any less than it does now . . .

Scharky's on the right track -- this is leading away from tape/disc-based formats and into solid state, which is where things SHOULD be leading.

And if it's a sign that a large manufacturer is starting to "get it," then this nothing but good news.

 

[tnle2]

Barry, I'm not trying to twist anything. I'm just looking at this as simple as possible. If Panasonic puts ExpressCards into a P2 housing, common sense says why bother with P2 at all? Why not just go straight to ExpressCards if they are so good that Panasonic would even make an adapter to go to P2? The only good this would do is maintain backwards compatibility with existing P2 gear. Going forward, it would be insanity to keep buying P2 cameras and have adapters for every ExpressCard you have just to interface with P2. Just make the dang thing ExpressCards to begin with!

This is my point about repercussions. If Panasonic did this, they would be indirectly causing the downfall of their own P2 system or at least it would be creating doubt in the marketplace about their commitment to P2. This would be a major change in course for Panasonic.

 

[Barry_Green]

Woah there Barry. A NLE that can read DVCpro cannot necessarily read DVCpro50 or DVCpro100. Now Panasonic have also got AVC Intra with solid plans to release even more versions of that in the future! So I'm afraid that argument about Sony introducing codecs doesn't wash. At least they are using a common compression scheme.

An -- dare I say it -- obsolescent compression scheme. But you missed the point -- I was talking about hardware. XDCAM-HD needs different hardware (different decks) than XDCAM did. XDCAM-422 needs different hardware than XDCAM-HD does. P2 is the same hardware everywhere.

 

[Barry_Green]

They won't. They don't have a need to as it doesn't offer any major advantages other than making P2 card storage go further. Apart from that there aren't many other tangible benefits to it.

Would you care to bet? Sony will absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, definitely move to AVC (or JPEG-2000 or RedCode). I don't know when, maybe within three years, but they absolutely will abandon MPEG-2 and move to AVC.

 

[Barry_Green]

If Panasonic puts ExpressCards into a P2 housing, common sense says why bother with P2 at all?

Because there are some 50,000 P2 camcorders out there already. With massive installations at news stations and networks. Why would they abandon all that?

Why not just go straight to ExpressCards if they are so good that Panasonic would even make an adapter to go to P2?

There's nothing about ExpressCard that's superior over the CardBus factor of P2 except that it's a little smaller, and that laptops are migrating to it. The speed advantage is a red herring; CardBus cards aren't anywhere near fast enough to max out the speed of the underlying RAM.

The only good this would do is maintain backwards compatibility with existing P2 gear. Going forward, it would be insanity to keep buying P2 cameras and have adapters for every ExpressCard you have just to interface with P2. Just make the dang thing ExpressCards to begin with!

Sony can do that, because they're three years behind the times. Panasonic doesn't have to, and probably wouldn't, because they've already got some 50,000 existing installed camcorders out there. But if they do, it'd probably involve some manner of "bridge" product (just like how the HVX has tape in it; it's a bridge product for consumers to migrate from one format to the other). Maybe 10 years from now everyone will be on ExpressCard, and the adapters will prove to have migrated people over. I don't know. All I do know is: the system works very well right now, there are no limitations by it not being in ExpressCard, there are already adapters to allow ExpressCard-only laptops to work with it, and it's backward-and-forward compatible. So again -- where's the problem?

If Panasonic did this, they would be indirectly causing the downfall of their own P2 system or at least it would be creating doubt in the marketplace about their commitment to P2. This would be a major change in course for Panasonic.

Well, let's just agree to disagree then. I say it's no change in course whatsoever. Solid state is solid state. The difference is that Panasonic wouldn't be abandoning their early adopters as well as their existing network and broadcast clients. They can add future capability and compatibility *without* hosing themselves or their customers. I don't see how that could possibly be interpreted as a bad thing.

 

[Simon Wyndham]

Would you care to bet? Sony will absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, definitely move to AVC (or JPEG-2000 or RedCode). I don't know when, maybe within three years, but they absolutely will abandon MPEG-2 and move to AVC.

You reckon Sony, based on previous track records, will go to Redcode or JPEG2000? Sony will go to another codec at some point. Thats a bit like predicting that it might snow in some country somewhere during the winter season.

But its funny because Sony are predicting that Panasonic will move in a different direction too. But I guess you'll tell me that I'm wrong and you're right. Fine Barry, I've had enough of this silly topic of discussion.

 

[harddrive]

Sony will absolutely, unquestionably, without a doubt, definitely move to AVC (or JPEG-2000 or RedCode). I don't know when, maybe within three years, but they absolutely will abandon MPEG-2 and move to AVC.

Move to AVC, or move to JPEG2000?

JPEG2000 makes a lot of sense (as does RedCode) as it is wavelet based. (So problems exhibit as a slight softening, rather than blockiness as with DVCProHD, MPEG2 and AVC.) But AVC? I don't see Sony moving to that, surely it is too interim a step with a wavelet system in view, and Red and Grass Valley going with such schemes? Maybe JPEG2000 may be stretching technology a little at the moment, so sticking with MPEG2 for now, then moving straight to JPEG2000 would be sensible. And I'd guess within a lot less than 3 years.

But what the codec is, and what it's recorded to are two totally separate issues. Whatever codec is chosen, surely there is now more sense for *FUTURE* cameras to record it to SxS than P2?

 

[tnle2]

There's nothing about ExpressCard that's superior over the CardBus factor of P2 except that it's a little smaller, and that laptops are migrating to it.

IMO, there is one big advantage: ExpressCard has the potential for being more widely adopted since it is an open IT standard and the ExpressCards are not anything special. The more people adopt it, the cheaper everything gets. JVC or Canon could adopt ExpressCards if they wanted to. Someone could build cheap P2 Store type devices for ExpressCards if they wanted to. There are so many possibilities. I think even you recognize that because you want Panasonic to make an ExpressCard to P2 adapter.

The problem lies in the person who still needs to buy a camera. Do you invest in P2 or an open ExpressCard format who has more potential to be widely adopted? It's the old Betamax vs. VHS debate. Or the the SD card versus Memory Stick debate. Personally, I'd go with the open format.

Sony can do that, because they're three years behind the times. Panasonic doesn't have to, and probably wouldn't, because they've already got some 50,000 existing installed camcorders out there.

Barry, you can call Sony behind the times if you want, but I think it was a good decision. And I have no particular love for Sony because I applaud Canon and JVC for doing the same thing. They all stuck to MPEG-2 because it's an affordable, space-efficient scheme for achieving HD right now.

Panasonic, on the other hand, was really AHEAD of their time. It's been 3 long years and only now are we seeing 16 GB P2 cards and the Cineporter, is still not shipping. It's like they made one big giant leap but then fell into a vat of molasses. Meanwhile, the competition like Sony, Canon and JVC have working slowly but diligently on the less glamorous MPEG-2 and all the while laying the groundwork for the next big step. This kind of reminds me of the tortoise and the hare and we all know how that turned out.

So really, I could argue that Sony, Canon and JVC (all MPEG-2 adopters) aren't behind the times, but are really at the right time.

I also agree with harddrive. I think we should skip AVC all together and go straight to wavelet like REDCODE. Maybe Canon will do that, LOL. They've been acting like a rabid, unpredictable animal lately so who knows. They have the sensor and lens technology and the pendulum is swinging back to larger sensors. Canon is more than capable of building a camera that kills the XDCAM-EX if they wanted to. Hmmm...maybe that's why the lens went from Canon to Fujinon? Interesting....

 

[harddrive]

There's nothing about ExpressCard that's superior over the CardBus factor of P2 except that it's a little smaller, and that laptops are migrating to it.

To add to Tims last post, then I'd say that laptops migrating to it is pretty significant in itself. And my understanding is that it should inherently be much cheaper than P2 like for like as the underlying design is far more straightforward. Isn't that enough!?!

Not only does that mean less $/GB, but also that the underlying cost of the card itself is far cheaper. That's pretty important for some users who are looking for the cheapest possible card, even if it's low capacity. The P2 model seems to be working on keeping the actual cost of the card range (very roughly) static, whilst increasing capacity, and discontinuing the lower size cards. That translates to a lower cost/GB, but not any really low cost cards, albeit small in size.

SxS pricing should more closely follow the model for SD, CF etc. (They don't need the raid complexities etc.) Last time I looked, you could get a 16GB pro CF card for about £160, but still get a 1GB in the same range for about £16.

 

[John Trent]

Regarding the P2 price drop - "Now, instead insanely, ludicrously expensive, they're just really expensive!" I'm not the only one that thinks this, this quote is from Mike Curtis of hdforindies.

I love the Panasonic look above all others. I want to buy Panasonic. But if I want Panasonic HD I have to spend $ 899.95 for a P2 card that will only save 16 minutes of footage before I go running for a laptop, or I can buy a Firestore for $1,829.95....or I can buy a $2.59 tape and another companies HDV cam.

I can't afford Panasonic's version of HD and it's really frustrating. There seems to be this huge chasm between their 4:3 SD cam and their P2 cam. The cost of the HVX isn't the problem, it's the MEDIA. I could buy the HVX and shoot SD on tape and wait for the media to really become affordable, but by the time that happens there'll be an A or B model with less noise, longer lens, and maybe AVC-Intra built in to double the P2 cards time. I want to buy the HVX, but because of the P2 cards I won't. It's that simple. Let me repeat that, I'm not buying this camera ONLY because of the media. I, and many others, are falling into this chasm. The Canon A1's popularity attests to this.

I hope Barry's right and Panasonic listens and makes an AVCHD DVX (I'd buy it) and makes "the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component" (hey, wait, that sounds good, I'd buy that too). THEN PANASONIC WOULD HAVE GIVEN ME CHOICES....OPTIONS. But that's a future that probably won't happen. Given the choice between the DVX and the Canon XL2 most chose the DVX. The Canon A1 is just a HD XL2. Nobody really likes the way it looks :evil: it's just so much less expensive to shoot with. Take the expensive and time constraining P2 out of the equation and I'd bet most would've bought Panasonic.

My choice is neither buy an DVX (when SD is not what I want) and get the great Panasonic film-look, or get a long GOP HDV camera with a look I don't like, but I get 16:9 and HD.

I'm underwhelmed....and wishing I could afford to shoot film.

 

[taormina]

Hey John,

No offense, but you have a warped understanding of P2 workflow. I've shot everything I've done with one 4gb P2 card and a laptop to offload.

Try shooting film sometime. My last 35mm short was done entirely with 200 foot short ends. We were changing the mags every...well 2 minutes!!!!!

And we shot like 8000 feet!!!!! Just like P2. Only P2 is getting better and bigger.

 

[David Jimerson]

John --

Don't think of P2 cards as "media" -- they're not. They're removable parts of the camera itself They're not tapes and they're not meant to be used like tapes.

Two 16GB cards will retail for about $1500 at first and will drop thereafter. Add that to the $5100 retail of the HVX, and you're at about $6600 (less than the HVX retailed for alone at first) -- and you never need to worry about having tape again.

Together, it's 32 minutes of full-bore 1080, but it's 80 minutes of 720p/24pN.

When the 32 gig cards hit, they'll probably street (at least some sales reps said) at $1300 at first, so to buy an HVX and two 32s would be about $7700 -- but you can record 64 minutes of full 1080 and 160 minutes of 720p/24pN. I can't imagine that woudn't be enough for almost any purpose.

To say nothing of the convenience of the workflow. It's hard to describe it fully to someone who's never used it, but imagine never needing to log or capture another tape, to have random access to your clips immediately, to be able to delete clips you don't want right away, to be able to organize and manage your media, in-camera, in ways you've never thought about doing.

Then, imagine later on, when you want to retrieve a clip you shot long before, and then simply going to your archive and doing a search on a term and having it instantly, rather than having to find a tape, wind it to the clip you want, and recapture it real-time (putting wear on the tape, incidentally).

So, is $6600 too much to pay for the look you know you want, the unmatched capability of the HVX (the variable frame rates alone are the deal-closer for most), and the convenience of working with P2 instead of tape?

Up to you. But think about it.

 

[harddrive]

Don't think of P2 cards as "media" -- they're not. They're removable parts of the camera itself They're not tapes and they're not meant to be used like tapes.

To say nothing of the convenience of the workflow. It's hard to describe it fully to someone who's never used it, but imagine ...........

David, I don't need to imagine. I trialled the SD P2 camera well before the HVX200 came out, and became well aware of the benefits you describe. (Plus lower power consumption than disc cameras.) But my main clients demand the ability for me to be able to hand over media immediately after shooting for them to take away for immediate use, and that was where P2 came unstuck. The P2 store was not an answer, and I got fed up with spending more time tracking cards down than filming. So hence we've stayed with tape for the time being, augmented with a Firestore now, to at least retain in some situations some of the tapeless features I liked about P2.

Those comments may apply much less to operations which are more self contained (ie one man!), I appreciate that, but I'm sure a lot of readers WILL be able to identify with them.

Far from knocking P2 per se, I WANT the benefits of solid state for exactly the reasons you describe, but free of the restrictions that P2 currently imposes. And a move to SxS would go a long way towards making that possible. A card of 32GB costing $2,000 (say) may be just what some people want. For many other people 8 4GB cards costing $200 each may be far more useful. For the reasons above, a range of card sizes and prices is more viable with SxS (or CF, SD etc) than P2. And if SxS is generally far cheaper per GB than P2 can be, surely that must be a good thing?

I appreciate people with current commercial interests in P2 can hardly publicly agree with what such as myself as TimLe are saying, but I can only hope they are taking it in in private. And the arguments about the actual physical memory should not be confused with wider points about individual cameras, workflow, codecs etc.

 

[taormina]

harddrive: I don't see why you couldn't transfer all the P2 data to a folder on a laptop and then burn a couple DVDs of the footage to give to your customers. Or buy a hard drive (as your name implies) for $100, put it into your price, and just give it to them at the end of the shoot.

It seems like everyone against P2 always has a workflow issue of some sort. They'll throw up a roadblock to the whole process. I don't see how the SxS cards will change this for you - you will still have tons of data to hand to your customers - are you planning on giving them the SxS cards?


The funny part is, tape is the most inflexible, most archaic dinosaur that exists ou there...people have been recording on tape for the last half century...and apparently it has it's adherents.

I have a shelf full of HDCAM footage I shot on a cinealta which is useless to me since i d not own an HDCAM deck. Tape is truly a disappointment.

Working with P2 is as hard as you want to make it, guys.

 

[izoneguy]

I have many self-powered Firewire 800 drives I bring on location for those type A clients. For what they use to pay for a box of BetaSP tapes they get the drive. I can transfer an 8 gig card in 4 minutes. At the end of the day I clone the drive.
Something easily accomplished while striking. The client has the footage they can edit at their office. I have a copy of the footage so I can refer to it. I tell them - "It takes less time to transfer the footage and clone a drive then it would take to rewind a box of BetaSP or HDV tapes." Ironically enough, many of the clients that hire me have an HDV camera and in many cases they were disappointed with the image quality of HDV. Many of these clients have gone on and purchased an HVX after they saw in action the P2 workflow.

 

[Flash Beaver]

IMO, there is one big advantage: ExpressCard has the potential for being more widely adopted since it is an open IT standard and the ExpressCards are not anything special. The more people adopt it, the cheaper everything gets. JVC or Canon could adopt ExpressCards if they wanted to. Someone could build cheap P2 Store type devices for ExpressCards if they wanted to. There are so many possibilities. I think even you recognize that because you want Panasonic to make an ExpressCard to P2 adapter.

The problem lies in the person who still needs to buy a camera. Do you invest in P2 or an open ExpressCard format who has more potential to be widely adopted? It's the old Betamax vs. VHS debate. Or the the SD card versus Memory Stick debate. Personally, I'd go with the open format.

The express card has a nice little form factor. But my big question here is, if I have a P2 system, and a direct adapter is made to put express cards right into the p2 slot of my camera. And I'm getting the exact same performance. Where is the problem in this?

I buy a whole handful of express cards, a couple p2-express adapters that fit the express cards NICELY, and I still get my data at the end of the project.

My HVX is still my HVX. It will still only put out a certain amount of information to the card per second. Whether I have a camera that recorded DVCPRO100 or AVC the data is still being laid down at the speed it can handle, to a card thats data will be dumped shortly onto a more permanent storage device.

I'll wipe my express card, stick it back in the adapter in my HVX and carry on.

We got one of the very early DVCPRO decks back in the mid 90's. I remember it well for three reasons. First, we needed the TBC control module that allowed us to set levels direct from the deck. Second, we were dealing with someone in Japan to get some EEPROMS needed because we wanted to be ready if and when someone handed us a DVCAM tape. It wasn't quite there yet, but we wanted to be ready.

And most important I got a half dozen of these cute yellow Mini-DV to DVCPRO adapters from Panasonic that allowed me to edit directly from mini-DV and pre-read right onto D2.

Either way, life continued, nothing earth-shattering (except for $$$ savings) happened, and the gear lived out its course in the edit bay.

So I do not see this being the Betamax vs VHS debate. You couldn't load a betamax tape into a vhs player. But I don't see anything stopping an express card slipping into a p2 slot in the near future.