New sony cam follows our beloved HVX

[David Jimerson]

Sure, it's important, but honestly there is no significant difference between 4:2:2 as implement in DVCPRO-HD and 4:2:0 for the applications that a typical DVXUser will do.

Even if true (which I do not concede), so? No one said anything about what "typical DVXusers" do. Not relevant to the conversation at hand.

People here are independent filmmakers. They don't have much money. They just want to make a movie. The sad thing is a lot of them get brainwashed into thinking that they have to have 4:2:2 or somehow their movie will suck. It's not true. Your movie could suck because the camerawork is bad, the audio is bad, the lighting is bad, the writing is bad, or any number of things but it's not going to suck because you used long GOP 4:2:0 and not 4:2:2 intraframe. That's the truth and anyone who says otherwise is doing a great disservice to people who don't have a lot of money.

Again, so? Not what I was talking about. You're saying that people should abandon their HVXs just because you think P2 is dead. I'm saying that people who use HVXs don't use it only because of P2, and in fact, I'd wager it's a secondary or tertiary consideration for the vast majority.

Anyhow, ExpressCards will be expensive at first like you said. I agree there. But c'mon man, Lexar, Sandisk, Sony, and Transcend will all be making them. Hell maybe even Simpletech and A-Data or B-Data or whatever those dang off-brand Newegg memory guys will too. ExpressCards are the new standard for laptops. They're already making new laptops with them. It's all just plain normal computer stuff. We all know how computer stuff takes off and gets really cheap. I pay more for a tank of gas than a 2 GB USB flash drive! The potential is there. P2 does not have that potential. Even Barry Green recognizes the potential of ExpressCards otherwise he wouldn't say Panasonic would be stupid for not thinking of supporting ExpressCards.

You keep trying to shift the conversation. No one's saying that P2 will last forever. No one's saying that ExpressCard memory won't be a great thing.

What people ARE saying is that a single camera announcing the intention to use ExpressCard memory cards does not a death warrant for P2 make, as you're insisting it is.

ExpressCard could well flop. Could be that there's something that always keeps the price for HD acquisition cards above that of P2 cards. Or something could come along that blows both of them away.

But to say that right now, today, P2 is dead and that everyone should move to something else, right now, today, is simply ludicrous. There's no other way to describe it.

And yes, that adapter would kill P2 sales. Why the heck would you buy an P2 card if Panasonic is enabling you to use a different memory card? And if they lower the price of P2 so ExpressCards are not attractive, then what's the point of making that ExpressCard to P2 adapter? See the catch-22? There is no way they will make this adapter. Panasonic is damned if they do and damned if they don't. If you see them supporting ExpressCards, P2 will be dead.

P2 is more than just the cards. P2 is an entire system which an adapter wouldn't kill.

By the way, Panasonic has offered third-party card manufacture licensing for anyone who could show they'd be able to meet the standards of quality since the beginning.

 

[tnle2]

One question I have is...who is to say that Sony doesn't twist it as to require some form of proprietary express card? Sony has a long and rich history of requiring you to use proprietary components in their products. Will this be different?

Good question. I hope not. If they do that it would be very bad, especially since it would make my posts look foolish :grin:

The cards are technically SxS Express Cards. But from this press release on DPReview I can't tell if there is any difference between a plain jane Express Card and an SxS card. The SxS cards comply with the Express Card standard, have the same size and same interface. It's just they have a target transfer speed of 800 Mbps (the format has max transfer speed of 2.5 Gbps). So it seems like the SxS cards are just branded so that they are guaranteed to work for HD video. It's like having a CF card that is like minimum 60X speed for your DSLR or something like that.

I guess we won't really know until they ship the camera and someone sticks a generic ExpressCard into it. But you're right, Sony has a history of proprietary formats. Perhaps they have turned a new leaf and abandoned their evil ways. That's why this was such big news.

 

[David Jimerson]

People here are building Steadicams out of PVC pipe and improvising lights from the Home Depot. You think those people have money? You think independent filmmakers in general have money? Then why don't they pay the talent and crew then?!

Now, hold on -- you're predicting the demise of P2 and urging people to dump their HVXs based on the upcoming release of a camera which, without memory cards, will cost more than an HVX with two 32 GB cards, and you're citing limited funds as a lynchpin of your argument?

Dude, if you don't like P2 and you're hyped on XDCAM, that's your own business and God bless you, but holy cow, don't project it on everyone else.

 

[David Jimerson]

The cards are technically SxS Express Cards. But from this press release on DPReview I can't tell if there is any difference between a plain jane Express Card and an SxS card. The SxS cards comply with the Express Card standard, have the same size and same interface. It's just they have a target transfer speed of 800 Mbps (the format has max transfer speed of 2.5 Gbps). So it seems like the SxS cards are just branded so that they are guaranteed to work for HD video. It's like having a CF card that is like minimum 60X speed for your DSLR or something like that.

Not only is it a transfer rate issue, it's also a quality control issue. In order for these cards to perform, they need to be zero-defect, which is one of the reasons why P2 cards are so expensive. Typical consumer-grade stuff won't do.

 

[TimurCivan]

I'm saying that people who use HVXs don't use it only because of P2, and in fact, I'd wager it's a secondary or tertiary consideration for the vast majority.

Well i chose it Specifically because of P2.... it let me have a 100mbps,1080p, Variable framerate, 720p, DVCPRO50 camera all in one package 6 MONTHS AGO!!! (though other lucky ducks had it for over a year)

its paid for itself, and EVERYONE who has seen footage has been happy. Stop worrying. Everyone, if you guys like XDCAM and its offerings better, go ****ign buy it. Me and David will, love ourr HVX';s, and use vegas till our eyes bleed. Im gonna buy that sony if its footage loooks good. then when a better camera comes out.... im gonna buy that one too. Becvause guess what. Video camera = Hamer/screw driver. It a too lto make me money. thats it. its not a religous idol that needs, to be defended to death.

Rant over.

 

[tnle2]

But to say that right now, today, P2 is dead and that everyone should move to something else, right now, today, is simply ludicrous. There's no other way to describe it.

Sorry if I am implying that. I am not. I even said in this post that it is not an urgent issue right now. But...if ExpressCards get adopted by other manufacturers, it could be a serious issue. It's like when BetacamSP equipment got supplanted by digital, if you didn't sell out early, the value of the equipment dropped like a rock.

For people who have yet to buy into a system, it is my opinion that those people should think twice about P2. If they think twice and still choose P2, I have no ill will towards them. All I'm saying is that times are a' changing and I would think real hard before choosing ANY system.

 

[David Jimerson]

One question I have is...who is to say that Sony doesn't twist it as to require some form of proprietary express card? Sony has a long and rich history of requiring you to use proprietary components in their products. Will this be different?

Sony announced a year or two ago that they were never going to produce another system which WASN'T proprietary. Is this still their plan? Don't know. But I'd probably lean on the side of your take here.

 

[tnle2]

its paid for itself, and EVERYONE who has seen footage has been happy. Stop worrying. Everyone, if you guys like XDCAM and its offerings better, go poo pooign buy it. Me and David will, love ourr HVX';s, and use vegas till our eyes bleed. Im gonna buy that sony if its footage loooks good. then when a better camera comes out.... im gonna buy that one too. Becvause guess what. Video camera = Hamer/screw driver. It a too lto make me money. thats it. its not a religous idol that needs, to be defended to death.

Timur, you are very fortunate that you get paid for what you do and can afford to buy new cameras because they pay for themselves. Unfortunately, most independent filmmakers and enthusiasts (like many on this site) do not have that luxury. The one camera they have will have to last them a very long time. Would it be wise for them to buy into P2 when something better might be out there? I don't think so. I am not here to defend or fight against any camera or format like a religious zealot. I don't get paid by any camera company so it does me no good if someone chooses one over another.

I don't even normally post on this site. But honestly all I am trying to do is help people choose a good camera, especially those who have very little money. Many of these people just love filmmaking and don't know necessarily understand a lot of the technical details. So they rely on the opinions of others to help them and many of those opinions are skewed towards expensive equipment that they may not need, such as intraframe 4:2:2.

 

[David Jimerson]

Well i chose it Specifically because of P2.... it let me have a 100mbps,1080p, Variable framerate, 720p, DVCPRO50 camera all in one package 6 MONTHS AGO!!! (though other lucky ducks had it for over a year)

its paid for itself, and EVERYONE who has seen footage has been happy. Stop worrying. Everyone, if you guys like XDCAM and its offerings better, go poo pooign buy it. Me and David will, love ourr HVX';s, and use vegas till our eyes bleed. Im gonna buy that sony if its footage loooks good. then when a better camera comes out.... im gonna buy that one too. Becvause guess what. Video camera = Hamer/screw driver. It a too lto make me money. thats it. its not a religous idol that needs, to be defended to death.

Rant over.

If it gives me the image I want, then I'll use it. :beer:

But did you buy the HVX because it's P2, or because you wanted the benefits of everyone you listed, and P2 allowed you that without a $12,000 tape transport on the side?

 

[TimurCivan]

because it let me own equipment that could provide all thoes benefits. So yes, i didint need to be stuck to a Deck or computer via a SDI => DVCproHDdeck/XDcamdeck/Konacard whatever. i can just shoot.

 

[David Jimerson]

I don't even normally post on this site. But honestly all I am trying to do is help people chooce a good camera, especially those who have very little money. Many of these people just love filmmaking and don't know necessarily understand a lot of the technical details. So they rely on the opinions of others to help them and many of those opinions are skewed towards expensive equipment that they may not need, such as intraframe 4:2:2.

Tim, the only one in this thread who's urging anyone toward or against any camera is you. No one here is saying anyone should buy an HVX. The only reason intraframe 4:2:2 even came into the conversation was as a possible explanation as to why people who have chosen the HVX did so, and why they'll be very interested in continuing to use it despite your warnings that P2 is dead.

But again, I have to return to the fact that the HVX with two 32 GB cards will still cost less than the XDCAM EX without cards, and ExpressCards are going to list higher than P2 cards, so your concern about people's pocketbooks seems a bit misplaced. And any talk of Canon or JVC offerings is at this point entirely specious.

 

[David Jimerson]

because it let me own equipment that could provide all thoes benefits. So yes, i didint need to be stuck to a Deck or computer via a SDI => DVCproHDdeck/XDcamdeck/Konacard whatever. i can just shoot.

Right. That's what I'm saying.

 

[TimurCivan]

Timur, you are very fortunate that you get paid for what you do and can afford to buy new cameras because they pay for themselves. Unfortunately, most independent filmmakers and enthusiasts (like many on this site) do not have that luxury. The one camera they have will have to last them a very long time. Would it be wise for them to buy into P2 when something better might be out there? I don't think so. I am not here to defend or fight against any camera or format like a religious zealot. I don't get paid by any camera company so it does me no good if someone chooses one over another.

I don't even normally post on this site. But honestly all I am trying to do is help people choose a good camera, especially those who have very little money. Many of these people just love filmmaking and don't know necessarily understand a lot of the technical details. So they rely on the opinions of others to help them and many of those opinions are skewed towards expensive equipment that they may not need, such as intraframe 4:2:2.

Hmm ok. I understand what you mean, but, i really think anyone who is a "Amateur", or, indie filmmmaker who only shooting theri own work, who isnt a DP, or event videographer, where multiple formats become important, should buy an A1. its a miracle of Video. Gorgeous picture, and under 4,000$. What more can you possibly ask for???? I need the P2 workflow (or the new XDCAMex for that matter) because i need to be able to provide my clients with the level of aquisition they prefer. some people cant edit, 1080, cause theri computer is slow. So i can offer them, 720p, DVCpro50 or DV. Some people are shooting Web videos, to be delivered at ~480x240 resolution. i shoot DVCpro50 for them. They wouldnt need 1080P HDV. its over kill, and will maketheir lives unneccesarily difficult. I can offer them the resolution that best fits their specific job. The Panasonic, to me, is the only really professional sub 10K camera. If the Sony has an AWESOME picutre, that will be the new king. but we have yet to see an image. Who knows, it may suffer from the "oilpaint" effect and be nearly useless.

 

[tnle2]

Tim, the only one in this thread who's urging anyone toward or against any camera is you.

David, I don't appreciate that characterization. I have REPEATEDLY stated there are options from Sony, JVC and Canon and even Panasonic. Look at my post history here and at DVInfo. I make positive and negative comments towards all cameras ranging from the HV20 to the V1U to the HD100.

The HVX was mentioned because it's the only P2 camera that people here would likely buy. But since the subject of this thread is the XDCAM-EX, the discussion naturally moved to P2 versus ExpressCards. I laid out all the advantages of the ExpressCard open format. My points are for all P2 cameras, if that has not been clear.

Once again, I am not urging anyone to buy anything. What does it matter to me? All that I am saying is that people consider all options. Seems simple to me. I'm now sounding like a broken record so I'm putting this one to rest.

Good luck everyone with your camera purchase and remember, good filmmaking is the sum of its parts. It's not just the image.

 

[David Jimerson]

David, I don't appreciate that characterization. I have REPEATEDLY stated there are options from Sony, JVC and Canon and even Panasonic. Look at my post history here and at DVInfo. I make positive and negative comments towards all cameras ranging from the HV20 to the V1U to the HD100.

The HVX was mentioned because it's the only P2 camera that people here would likely buy. I have nothing against the HVX200. Buy since the subject of this thread is the XDCAM-EX, the discussion naturally moved to P2 versus ExpressCards. I laid out all the advantages of the ExpressCard open format. My points are for all P2 cameras, if that has not been clear.

Once again, I am not urging anyone to buy anything. What does it matter to me? All that I am saying is that people consider all options. Seems simple to me. I'm now sounding like a broken record so I'm putting this one to rest.

Good luck everyone with your camera purchase and remember, good filmmaking is the sum of its parts. It's not just the image.

No, Tim; you're not urging anyone to buy a camera, but you are urging everyone to dump P2. (You said to "get out of Dodge" twice in one sentence, for example.) And, as I said, you're the only one in this thread who's urging for or against any camera. I don't think that's an unfair characterization.

 

[TedRR]

So this doesn't turn into an HVX is best thread. I'm sure the Sony will make decent pictures and have a place in the industry. And competition creates better tools so it's all good.

But does anyone remember what the Sony will record? Can it do all flavors? I must have missed that with all the anti P2 talk.
If not, that still makes me happy with my HVX purchase. As TimurCivan said, being able record the flavor of the day makes my HVX a wise business decision.

 

[David Jimerson]

Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of detail yet, but I gather it's going to shoot similar formats (but not codecs, obviously) to the HVX -- 1080p -- maybe 30p and 24p, 1080i/60, 720p -- probably 24 and 60, maybe 30. And whatever their variable frame rate implementation will be. It remains to be seen.

It'll be interesting to see what they do re: VFR with long-GOP recording. With intraframe, especially Native mode in P2, it's easy. We'll see.

 

[tnle2]

No, Tim; you're not urging anyone to buy a camera, but you are urging everyone to dump P2. (You said to "get out of Dodge" twice in one sentence, for example.) And, as I said, you're the only one in this thread who's urging for or against any camera. I don't think that's an unfair characterization.

Okay fine, one last thing. David, P2 is not a camera, is it? So how am I urging for or against a camera? I said you should consider getting out of dodge IF people see a trend where other manufacturers are adopting ExpressCards. I don't know about you, but in my world that would be wise thing to do.

Ted, the XDCAM-EX records to XDCAM-HD format up to 35 Mbps VBR. It records to 1080/60i and 720/60P, and will be capable of recording 1080/50i/30P/25P/24P and 720/50P. It will also have some form of variable frame rates, some people reporting 1-60 frames, but I don't think that is confirmed.

 

[David Jimerson]

Only 60p or 50p in 720? Is that confirmed? Or are other frame rates not listed because that's where the VFR will happen?

 

[tnle2]

Only 60p or 50p in 720? Is that confirmed?

It does both.

http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_r...uction/content_create_edit/release/29851.html