Sony's Dirty Marketing - A Rant

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I know you were kidding, but what Sony is doing is simply "puffing" -- its both an advertising and legal term.

Sony cams are nice. The objection with them for me and others who own a HVX200 is the GOP issue.

Get I-frame acquisition, and I'd look at them again.
 
David S. said:
but what Sony is doing is simply "puffing" -- its both an advertising and legal term.
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No, what Sony is doing is simply "lying" -- and yes, that is exactly what they're doing.

Over a dozen people said that Sony was telling people "you can't put a P2 card in your pocket if you have loose change in there, because the coins will rub against it and create static charges that'll erase the card." That's a blatant, bald-faced lie. I put it to the test, loaded my pockets with change, carried around a card all around the casino floor of the Planet Hollywood, all on the bus ride over to the convention center, all through the convention center... surely that'd be enough to put it to the test, right?

Plugged the card in and -- guess what -- it worked. No lost footage whatsoever.

They also said "you can't get a P2 card too near a CRT monitor because it'll erase it." So I took the card and rubbed it all over the CRT-monitor slot machines. Front side, back side, left side, right side, any possible way I could find to make that card make contact with the CRT. Guess what -- it didn't lose a single frame. Then I decided to get pre-emptive on 'em, so I kept the card in my pocket with my cell phone, because sooner or later they'll probably start some cell-phone-based claim, right? Surprise, surprise, the card performs perfectly even when having been in direct contact with a cell phone for hours.

Bernie Mitchell and Robert Lane got so fed up with people repeating the "loose change/static" thing (which they'd just heard from the Sony people) that Bernie and Robert started tossing the P2 card on the floor and using their foot to grind it on the carpet, generating as much static as they could. Then they'd put it in the camera and -- guess what -- it worked flawlessly.

I find Sony's tactics shameful. For a Japanese company to conduct themselves with such a lack of honor is surprising. It smacks of desperation.
 
Sorry, but this is utterly absurd. I have had the misfortune to listen to Panasonic talks and demos about P2 and they have usually spent around half of it running down the XDCAM disc system. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

In fact one of my colleagues had to do a public talk for Sony about the XDCAM system. In his original draft he pointed out some disadvantages to the P2 system. Nothing nasty, just observations he had made. But he was told by the Sony management that under no circumstances was he allowed to make any such comments about the competition.

Even when I talk on a private level with Sony reps they refuse to make any derogatory comments about Panasonic. Because, and I emphasise this, *it is Sony company policy not to do that*. If any Sony rep was badmouthing Panasonic then they would probably be in a lot of trouble if their bosses found out.

Regarding the static thing, well, the various memory card manufacturers do recommend that the contacts be kept away from static charges. The P2 cards are made from electronics chips and as you know, stuff like motherboards and other circuit boards with chips on them don't like static. Thats why you should wear an anti static wristband and earth yourself when handling them. So it is a legitimate concern if only because the various memory card makers themselves have warned in the past about undue contact with the metal contacts.

If anyone plays dirty I can you that Panasonic more than take the award for the most public slagging off of other companies. They even make snipes in their adverts!!
 
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Barry_Green said:
I find Sony's tactics shameful. For a Japanese company to conduct themselves with such a lack of honor is surprising. It smacks of desperation.
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Nationality has nothing to do with it, honor goes out the window when money gets involved, the same thing happens in every other country.

But let's not forget that these are the same people who brought us the Sony Rootkit which f'd up countless computer systems in a misguided attempt to protect their intellectual property. These people aren't playing with a full deck.
 
Why are you guys so worked up on ? Just sit back and watch sony $#@$@# up and shoot themselves on the foot. Look at the once meanacing 3 cmos "TRUE" 24p Sony V1u.
 
But let's not forget that these are the same people who brought us the Sony Rootkit which f'd up countless computer systems in a misguided attempt to protect their intellectual property. These people aren't playing with a full deck.
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I think you'll find that all Sony's are not the same. Sony is an umbrella under which all the different parts come under. Sony electronics is not the same as Sony Music. Even the consumer and broadcast divisions are totally separate with one not knowing what the other is doing.

With all the piracy going about why shouldn't they try and protect themselves from it? How they went about it was wrong, but the way people talk anyone would think that they have no right to protect themselves from people (perhaps those who are complaining) who want to copy music and get it for free.
 
3 cmos "TRUE" 24p Sony V1u.
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Yes, whats the problem? It is true progressive scan. CMOS sensors are natively progressive. Oh, and it was me that discovered the problem with the filtering. Thats nothing to do with whether it is true progressive or not (it is, and anyone that says it isn't is talking the same kind of falsety that they are accusing Sony reps at NAB of doing).
 
) if they'd just put their money where they're mouths are and give people what they want in a prosumer camera.
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If the talk on other forums is anything to go by, they have.

The claim that the P2 technology has reached it's limit and "IS DEAD" must have been said a dozen times.
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Have you entertained the notion that perhaps they may be right? Sony have stayed out of solid state until now because they didn't feel that the technology was good enough or cheap enough, at least not for the prosumer section of the market. P2 has been out for 4 years now. The interface was superceded almost as soon as it was released. This isn't a rundown of P2, merely an observed fact.

Now consider whether JVC, Canon, and any of the others bring out cards that work with the SxS Express Cards. Even if the recording codecs are different it makes good sens for the different companies to start using the same sorts of cards. That too will help drive prices down.

And it's still going to be GOP??? When will they dump that concept? Next year?
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Yes they are going to stick with it, for the following exceptionally good reasons.

1. They are extremely experienced with that method and have got it down to a fine art.

2. While the cards are cheaper than P2 long GOP is still the only way to achieve sensible recording times with it.

3. It is the same 35Mbps format as the current XDCAM HD. That means that the files are totally compatible with existing NLE's (ie so you won't have to wait for NLE makers to catch up and release updates to their programs after the camera is released).

4. The 35Mbps codec is accepted on the current XDCAM 1/2" cameras for unrestricted delivery by THE most fussy broadcasters on the plenet who torture tested the codec to destruction. It passed with flying colours. With that in mind would someone please tell me why they keep going on about how restrictive the codec is?? Its has been proven over and over and over and over and over again how good it is. When will people listen or at least have the courtesy to actually try it for themselves? Am I to believe that the most rigorous broadcasters on the planet have much lower standards than a video hobbyist doing wedding videos?
 
Simon Wyndham said:
Now consider whether JVC, Canon, and any of the others bring out cards that work with the SxS Express Cards. Even if the recording codecs are different it makes good sens for the different companies to start using the same sorts of cards. That too will help drive prices down.
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I could see this happening because ExpressCards is an open format and an IT format at that. JVC is no longer associated with Matsushita and Canon has been acting like a wild animal lately. If they all adopted ExpressCards, it would benefit them as a whole and they would all be basically ganging up on P2, their main competitor in solid state.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
Sorry, but this is utterly absurd. I have had the misfortune to listen to Panasonic talks and demos about P2 and they have usually spent around half of it running down the XDCAM disc system. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

In fact one of my colleagues had to do a public talk for Sony about the XDCAM system. In his original draft he pointed out some disadvantages to the P2 system. Nothing nasty, just observations he had made. But he was told by the Sony management that under no circumstances was he allowed to make any such comments about the competition.

Even when I talk on a private level with Sony reps they refuse to make any derogatory comments about Panasonic. Because, and I emphasise this, *it is Sony company policy not to do that*. If any Sony rep was badmouthing Panasonic then they would probably be in a lot of trouble if their bosses found out.

Regarding the static thing, well, the various memory card manufacturers do recommend that the contacts be kept away from static charges. The P2 cards are made from electronics chips and as you know, stuff like motherboards and other circuit boards with chips on them don't like static. Thats why you should wear an anti static wristband and earth yourself when handling them. So it is a legitimate concern if only because the various memory card makers themselves have warned in the past about undue contact with the metal contacts.

If anyone plays dirty I can you that Panasonic more than take the award for the most public slagging off of other companies. They even make snipes in their adverts!!
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Sorry, Simon -- I was there and I saw what Sony was doing. What's mentioned here is only the highlights.

And considering the large numbers of random people who all had the same stories about what the Sony reps were saying, there's no way they all made it up.

(Now, has ANYONE, ANYONE at all, EVER reached into their pocket and gotten a static shock off their change? Ever?)

As for the Panasonic reps, while I don't know what every single sales rep said, the ones I heard didn't say a word about Sony at all. And I know for a fact that none of the consultants working in booth did any Sony "slagging," and in fact went out of their way to refuse to.

Now, if you consider putting the various codecs up on plasmas, side-by-side for comparison, to be "slagging," then you have a different definition than I do.

What Sony was/is saying about P2 is just plain flat-out, bald-faced lying.

(And never mind all the Sony guys coming into the booth with their name tags turned around and huddling around the equipment, keeping cameras low and taking pictures. It's not that they were taking pictures -- it's that they were being sneaky about it. They obviously felt a need to hide something. Contrast it with the guys who said, "Hi, we're from Canon. Do you mind if we ask some questions?")
 
What Sony was/is saying about P2 is just plain flat-out, bald-faced lying.
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I didn't say anyone was lying. I was saying that it is Sony's policy not to do so and that those reps should not have been slagging off Panasonic. And I'm sorry, but I have been at Panasonic talks where their reps have been openly critical of their rivals. And I urge you to read what I said about a talk the guy I know did for Sony at the Video Forum. Like I said, its the pot calling the kettle black. Panasonic reps do not walk around with glowing white halos above their heads.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
But he was told by the Sony management that under no circumstances was he allowed to make any such comments about the competition.
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Did you go to the show Simon? Did you see the booth? Did you watch their projection system where they showed a P2 logo with a circle and a slash through it and where they proclaim that "P2 is dead"? If not, please recognize that you're way off base here. We're talking about what actually happened.

Even when I talk on a private level with Sony reps they refuse to make any derogatory comments about Panasonic. Because, and I emphasise this, *it is Sony company policy not to do that*. If any Sony rep was badmouthing Panasonic then they would probably be in a lot of trouble if their bosses found out.
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It was pervasive throughout the show. It was company-sponsored. They know exactly who was doing it because -- it was their booth. They did it.

Regarding the static thing, well, the various memory card manufacturers do recommend that the contacts be kept away from static charges. The P2 cards are made from electronics chips and as you know, stuff like motherboards and other circuit boards with chips on them don't like static. Thats why you should wear an anti static wristband and earth yourself when handling them. So it is a legitimate concern if only because the various memory card makers themselves have warned in the past about undue contact with the metal contacts.
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Are you trying to say that P2 users should only handle P2 cards while wearing anti-static wristbands?

If anyone plays dirty I can you that Panasonic more than take the award for the most public slagging off of other companies. They even make snipes in their adverts!!
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Like "When Sony Innovates, Others Imitate"? I don't recall anyone else producing blu-ray camcorders, but it seems like every major manufacturer is now offering solid state (Panasonic, Red, Thomson, Ikegami, and -- oh yes, Sony). Sorry, you're completely off base on this one. We were at the show. We saw the presentations. We heard the customers. We heard the reports from the CML party on Tuesday where the general gist was that Sony has lost all credibility.

Sony conducted themselves shamefully this year.
 
Barry_Green said:
No, what Sony is doing is simply "lying" -- and yes, that is exactly what they're doing.
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Barry, you and I are talking about two different things.

I agree it is incorrect to state the a p2 card will be damaged when carried in a pocket with change.

But I was talking about saying that the p2 card is dead, and that Sony's products are better than Panasonics.

However, what I don't understand it why this thread isn't locked by now.

Exactly what is being achieved by discussing Sony's reps at NAB?

All the thread does is simply bash Sony's conduct there.

Exactly what is being achieved by this thread?
 
Simon Wyndham said:
I didn't say anyone was lying. I was saying that it is Sony's policy not to do so and that those reps should not have been slagging off Panasonic. And I'm sorry, but I have been at Panasonic talks where their reps have been openly critical of their rivals. And I urge you to read what I said about a talk the guy I know did for Sony at the Video Forum. Like I said, its the pot calling the kettle black. Panasonic reps do not walk around with glowing white halos above their heads.
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What's "openly critical" for you? We're talking about deliberate misinformation spreading. If the Sony people had simply been pointing out where they honestly felt their products were superior, then hey, that's what they should be doing. But that isn't what were talking about here.

If you've got a Panasonic rep telling someone that you can't carry an XDCAM disc next to loose change for fear of it being erased, then that's one thing. If you've got that rep describing why 35 Mb Long-GOP is technically inferior to intraframe DVCPRO 100, that's quite another.
 
Did you go to the show Simon? Did you see the booth? Did you watch their projection system where they showed a P2 logo with a circle and a slash through it and where they proclaim that "P2 is dead"? If not, please recognize that you're way off base here. We're talking about what actually happened.
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I'm sorry I am NOT way off base. I can't speak for NAB, but I can tell you that my friend who did talks for Sony at Video Forum was catagorically told he could NOT under ANY circumstances slag off Panasonic in any way or form. I'm talking about what actually happened in that circumstance. At the same show Panasonic were doing talks about P2 and were openly slagging off XDCAM. Again, I was at that show. So I'm sorry Barry, but I think you just have to admit that Panasonic are not above the tactics that you are criticising even if at NAB they may have restrained themselves. Perhaps Sony had had enough of the way Panasonic has openly criticised XD in the past and they haven't retorted. But this time around they decided to be a lot tougher and play them at their own game.

Are you trying to say that P2 users should only handle P2 cards while wearing anti-static wristbands?
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No, I'm making the valid point that in the past memory card manufacturers instructions have included advice not to touch the contacts due to the risk of static. Don't blame the messenger!

Sorry, you're completely off base on this one. We were at the show. We saw the presentations.
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Just as you weren't at the show here in the UK Barry.
 
Simon Wyndham said:
No, I'm making the valid point that in the past memory card manufacturers instructions have included advice not to touch the contacts due to the risk of static. Don't blame the messenger!
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You can't touch the pin contacts of a P2 card.

And again, I ask -- have you ever gotten a static shock off loose change?
 
Okay you guys have beaten me down. Panasonic can do no wrong. They are angels from heaven and their only purpose on earth is to make people happy and joyous despite evil Sony who have come to assimilate everyone and only manufacture products so that people will hate them even more. Panasonic reps walk around in white glowing suits, they never swear, and they never have sex until after they are married.
 
Hey Simon....why bother defending Sony on a predominantly Panasonic board? You aren't going to make many proselytes here.

BTW....what camera do you have?
 
Simon Wyndham said:
Okay you guys have beaten me down. Panasonic can do no wrong. They are angels from heaven and their only purpose on earth is to make people happy and joyous despite evil Sony who have come to assimilate everyone and only manufacture products so that people will hate them even more. Panasonic reps walk around in white glowing suits, they never swear, and they never have sex until after they are married.
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Simon, I've asked you for specific examples of what Panasonic reps have done. Care to give any?

But even if you saw a Panasonic rep behaving like a chump, what makes you think we would defend it? (Give it a shot -- what did they do? Specifically? What was slagged, and in what way? I have no doubt that some rep somewhere has done it in some way, so lay it on us.)

And how does it exonerate Sony's behavior at NAB, which is what this conversation is about?

You're deflecting, and trying to make this about something other than what it is. Not sure why, but it's what you're doing.
 
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