Sony's Dirty Marketing - A Rant

[William_Robinette]

BTW....what camera do you have?

Why should this matter? All that matters is any given person's particular skills with the set of tools they have chosen to use. Who cares as long as the product is what the client/creator intended.

That questions provokes an inflammatory response.

 

[Barry_Green]

I'm sorry I am NOT way off base.

Yes, you are, because you're saying that what's being discussed here is "absurd" and that it wouldn't have happened. Yet it did. Did you see who started the thread? Ned Soltz. Not some "panasonic fanboy" or "anti-Sony crusader" but a moderator at 2-pop and a respected journalist for Videography.

I can't speak for NAB, but I can tell you that my friend who did talks for Sony at Video Forum was catagorically told he could NOT under ANY circumstances slag off Panasonic in any way or form.

And yet at NAB, that's exactly what they were doing. But they were doing it by LYING.

So I'm sorry Barry, but I think you just have to admit that Panasonic are not above the tactics that you are criticising even if at NAB they may have restrained themselves.

Sorry, no I don't -- because I don't recall any instance ever of Panasonic flatly lying and deceiving customers and potential customers. Panasonic has openly pointed out the faults of XDCAM and HDV, repeatedly, and quite openly -- by showing the actual product, showing where HDV falls apart, demonstrating how XDCAM doesn't hold up to multiple generations, etc. But at no time did they ever say "and XDCAM is already obsolete and the discs will burst into flames if you store them next to videotapes" or any idiocy like that.

So clarify what you're saying -- are you saying "it's okay for Sony to rag on P2 because Panasonic rags on MPEG-2" or are you saying "it's okay for Sony to lie through their teeth to deceive customers, even though Panasonic has never done that"? Because those are two very different things.

Perhaps Sony had had enough of the way Panasonic has openly criticised XD in the past and they haven't retorted. But this time around they decided to be a lot tougher and play them at their own game.

Their own game? No, more like Sony's game -- "lie through their teeth". That's a totally different game. I think it's more likely that Sony has had enough of plummeting sales and decided that they had to resort to desperation tactics. Which is, again, shameful.

Just as you weren't at the show here in the UK Barry.

And -- what does that have to do with anything? Did anyone come on here and accuse Sony of engaging in deliberately false claims and slagging at the UK show? Did anyone accuse Panasonic of doing such, and I came around saying "oh, of course that's not true, Panasonic has halos and would never do such a thing?"

Point is: the behavior happened, was seen by thousands and thousands of witnesses, and was an orchestrated and deliberate move on Sony's part. And it was pathetic.

 

[Simon Wyndham]

Yes, you are, because you're saying that what's being discussed here is "absurd" and that it wouldn't have happened.

No, what I said was absurd was the idea that panasonic reps are holier than thou, and that somehow Sony are evil while Panasonic can do no wrong, ever. Please inform me of the exact sentence where I said that anyone here lied? I didn't, you read what you wanted to read.

And yet at NAB, that's exactly what they were doing. But they were doing it by LYING.

you mean in the same way that the Panasonic paper on P2 claims that optical disc (meaning XDCAM) is susceptible to dropouts, errors, and heat and humidity?

demonstrating how XDCAM doesn't hold up to multiple generations, etc.

Actually it holds up better than AVC Intra, but anyway... Why would you be putting it through multiple generations of MPEG compression anyway unless you were constructing a fake scenario that doesn't happen in the realworld workflow. It passed Discovery HD and National Geographics tests for multiple compressions through the broadcast chain with flying colours. How does that tally with Panasonics claims Barry?

XDCAM is already obsolete and the discs will burst into flames if you store them next to videotapes"

No, they do that sort of stuff in the P2 brochures instead ;-) But Panasonic can't be too hard on optical disc because the techy guru they hired in to advise on P2 workflow said that Blu-Ray was one of the main solutions for archiving P2 footage!

"it's okay for Sony to rag on P2 because Panasonic rags on MPEG-2" or are you saying "it's okay for Sony to lie through their teeth to deceive customers, even though Panasonic has never done that"?

No Barry I'm not saying any of those things even though you seem to wish to read it that way. I don't believe I've made a statement on what I think in that regard. So I'll clarify. I don't think it is the right thing to do to slag off any company or tell lies about other companies products. As I said, if they did that then it was against their main policy. Period.

I think it's more likely that Sony has had enough of plummeting sales

Really? What, the plummeting sales of that most unsuccessful of cameras, the Z1 for instance? ;-) And the plummetting sales of XDCAM which is selling so badly that they can't make them fast enough to keep up with the orders? Yep, the sales figures are awful Barry.

And -- what does that have to do with anything? Did anyone come on here and accuse Sony of engaging in deliberately false claims and slagging at the UK show?

Barry, you make me laugh. If you can't get the point I was making then there is no hope. You want to stop arguments on these forums and yet you try to do so with all the finesse of a bull in a Chinashop. I was trying to counter the general concensus here that Sony are evil laying bastards by telling you what I know of their policy. If you want to try and blow things out of proportion, fine Barry.

 

[Barry_Green]

No, we were countering it by pointing out the evil lies. You trid to counter it by talking theory, we were talking about actual instances.

A prime example: let's take your quote of:

Actually it holds up better than AVC Intra,

Would you care to explain that?

 

[David Jimerson]

No, what I said was absurd was the idea that panasonic reps are holier than thou, and that somehow Sony are evil while Panasonic can do no wrong, ever.

Who said that, Simon? Where and when? Wait, YOU did. You were the first one to bring it up.

you mean in the same way that the Panasonic paper on P2 claims that optical disc (meaning XDCAM) is susceptible to dropouts, errors, and heat and humidity?

Are you saying it isn't? Are you saying you never get dropouts, errors, or that heat and humidity have no bearing on performance? Are you saying that solid-state, with no moving parts, isn't more resistant to these things?

And you think this is in the same league as saying that carrying a P2 card in your pocket with loose change will erase the card? As saying that getting a P2 card near a CRT screen will erase it?

Heck, for good measure, I just took a consumer compact-flash card and rubbed it against a CRT, then rubbed it all over the floor, then purposely held it in my hand while I generated a static shock. It still works and my files are fine.

Not long ago I accidentally washed a consumer USB thumb drive with my clothes. The case broke. The inside was exposed to the wash. It still worked.

The point is, Sony is making outlandish, ridiculous claims to scare people away from P2. There is no comparison between it and saying that optical disc is susceptible to those things, because optical disc quite simply is, just anything with moving parts is.

Actually it holds up better than AVC Intra, but anyway... Why would you be putting it through multiple generations of MPEG compression anyway unless you were constructing a fake scenario that doesn't happen in the realworld workflow.

The highest number of generations Panasonic demonstrated was three.

1) Capture.

2) Edit>Output.

3) Uplink.

This never happens in the real world?

It passed Discovery HD and National Geographics tests for multiple compressions through the broadcast chain with flying colours. How does that tally with Panasonics claims Barry?

Apples and oranges. There were no claims about about what network broadcast standards are. Only what the footage looks like after a few generations compared to other codecs/formats at the same number of generations. No matter what DHD and NG's standards are, better-looking footage is better-looking footage.

But Panasonic can't be too hard on optical disc because the techy guru they hired in to advise on P2 workflow said that Blu-Ray was one of the main solutions for archiving P2 footage!

You don't do your archiving in field conditions.

I don't think it is the right thing to do to slag off any company or tell lies about other companies products. As I said, if they did that then it was against their main policy. Period.

Then you should be condemning it, instead of trying to damn others, because they did it. And there's no way it wasn't with corporate sanction. It was their booth. It was even in their theater presentation.

I was trying to counter the general concensus here that Sony are evil laying bastards by telling you what I know of their policy. If you want to try and blow things out of proportion, fine Barry.

Dude, YOU WEREN'T THERE. You didn't see what they did.

 

[Raven Dixon]

What is the matter with you guys? arguing like this. Wouldn't it be more constructive if you actually went out and completed a worthwhile production or something?

Panasonic, or Sony, who cares. I don't believe there is such a thing as a crap camera, only crap cameramen.

So forget the Interframe, Intraframe thing. Most people wouldn't spot the difference on a HD monitor if their lives depended on it anyway, so what does it matter.

And for the record, XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. That's like saying DVCPRO50 is just DV, when we all know it is not as it uses a higher and superior bitrate, just like XDCAM HD does over HDV.

Move on guys, this is really boring.

 

[David Jimerson]

So stop reading it.

 

[Raven Dixon]

Wow, that was a really educated response; were you sitting at the computer just waiting for this post David or what?

 

[Simon Wyndham]

Are you saying you never get dropouts, errors, or that heat and humidity have no bearing on performance?

Yes I am, totally and utterly. And to my knowledge nobody else I have ever come across has either.

The highest number of generations Panasonic demonstrated was three.

Then kindly explain how it passed Discovery HD and National Geographics torture tests that include many more recompression cycles? I trust them far more than a Panasonic demo thanks.

Dude, YOU WEREN'T THERE. You didn't see what they did.

Why do you keep saying this? I never said that they lied! Please read that line and embed it into your mind!

 

[David Jimerson]

Wow, that was a really educated response; were you sitting at the computer just waiting for this post David or what?

What would you say, if you were a moderator, and someone signed up just so he could post how "boring" a thread is (as well as lecture on stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the actual thread), and then when you gave him the quite sensible and rather easy fix for his boredom, he responded as you did?

Would, mayhaps, the word "troll" come to mind? Think about that and get back to me.

 

[Raven Dixon]

Troll, I doubt it. That's what all you guys say when somebody actually challenges your intellect.

My post had everything to do with the thread. Here it is again as you have obviously forgotten during the past, 9 seconds.

"What is the matter with you guys? arguing like this. Wouldn't it be more constructive if you actually went out and completed a worthwhile production or something?
Panasonic, or Sony, who cares. I don't believe there is such a thing as a crap camera, only crap cameramen.
So forget the Interframe, Intraframe thing. Most people wouldn't spot the difference on a HD monitor if their lives depended on it anyway, so what does it matter.
And for the record, XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. That's like saying DVCPRO50 is just DV, when we all know it is not as it uses a higher and superior bitrate, just like XDCAM HD does over HDV."

There, so pretty relevant to me.

 

[David Jimerson]

Yes I am, totally and utterly. And to my knowledge nobody else I have ever come across has either.

That was a general "you," and not meant for you specifically, but if that's your experience, then fine. But that's not the same as saying it doesn't happen or that solid state isn't inherently more reliable under those conditions than any mechanism using moving parts.

Then kindly explain how it passed Discovery HD and National Geographics torture tests that include many more recompression cycles? I trust them far more than a Panasonic demo thanks.

Who cares? The demo wasn't about whether or not the footage would make it on TV (I've seen some pretty serious crap on both those networks). It was about how the various codecs looked, comparatively, after the same number of generations, regardless of the use you would put them to thereafter. It was completely up to you to decide which one you liked better.

Why do you keep saying this? I never said that they lied! Please read that line and embed it into your mind!

You seem to think I'm talking about Panasonic here. I'm not. I'm talking about Sony's bald-faced lies. And yes, you never did say that Sony lied. I cannot argue with that.

 

[Jeff Anderson]

Raven

Umm this thread is about the sony booth at NAB and how people were taken back by Sony's marketing ploys which directly trash the big brother to the camera which is this boards namesake.

Your post is talking about how xdcam is not hdv. and crap cameras. its not a matter of what the footage looks like but that GOP formats are a pain in the ass in post.

 

[David Jimerson]

Troll, I doubt it. That's what all you guys say when somebody actually challenges your intellect.

My post had everything to do with the thread. Here it is again as you have obviously forgotten during the past, 9 seconds.

"What is the matter with you guys? arguing like this. Wouldn't it be more constructive if you actually went out and completed a worthwhile production or something?
Panasonic, or Sony, who cares. I don't believe there is such a thing as a crap camera, only crap cameramen.
So forget the Interframe, Intraframe thing. Most people wouldn't spot the difference on a HD monitor if their lives depended on it anyway, so what does it matter.
And for the record, XDCAM HD is NOT HDV. That's like saying DVCPRO50 is just DV, when we all know it is not as it uses a higher and superior bitrate, just like XDCAM HD does over HDV."

There, so pretty relevant to me.

The thread is about Sony's conduct at NAB, not about the respective merits of cameras or codecs. Like I said, if it bores you, find something else to read.

Like, for example, the posting guidelines which you'll find at the top of every forum. Particuarly the part about personal insults. :thumbsup:

 

[taormina]

Sony sucks. There, I said it. Does that "challenge anybody's intellect"?

 

[puredrifting]

Hi all:

One thing nobody has mentioned in this thread and I am surprised none of you more experiences NAB goers have mentioned it.

Most of the so-called "reps" at NAB booths might as well be transients off of the streets of Vegas for all of the actual correct information they have. I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

My hypothesis is that the companies need so many bodies on the floor to handle the crowds that the real reps are mainly relegated to dealing with the large established clients like the Networks and studios and as you know, they meet in the special off of the floor rooms or at hospitality suites away from the hoi-polloi on the main floor.

Perhaps Jan can verify this but in my experience, it is common for the majority of the "reps" to be people who can stand out on the floor in a suit, handing out brochures and business cards and "trying" to answer questions, many of them uninformed and inane from the general public. Many have told me that they were hired just for NAB. Namy of them are clueless and it would not suprise me one bit if any of them lied or disparaged a competitors product.

FWIW, IMHO Sony is running scared and as a company, they are headed for dire times. As someone who has dealt with Sony consumer electronics division as a retailer and with Sony's broadcast division as a producer and DP, Sony in general is an arrogant company that has lost touch with their customer base. They do make some great products but Panasonic, as a whole, has surpassed them in the marketplace. Sony used to own the industrial/broadcast market and Masushita was a distant second. Now Sony seems to be on the long, slow downhill slide and Masushita/Panasonic is leading the way. And then with companies like RED coming in, all of the rules are changing. But back to the subject at hand, yes, many of the so-called reps at NAB are really clueless and would probably say things that are disparaging.

Best,

Dan

 

[Jeff Anderson]

Here's my quick stick up for Sony piece - I used to skydive a fair bit and the only consumer camera that would hold up consistently to being tossed out of an airplane are sony handycams. For that they dont suck. Otherwise I concur! Hotels without elevators suck too! (sorry i stayed in one in wichita a couple of weeks ago and I guess I'm still angry about hauling luggage up stairs)

 

[David Jimerson]

Hi all:

One thing nobody has mentioned in this thread and I am surprised none of you more experiences NAB goers have mentioned it.

Most of the so-called "reps" at NAB booths might as well be transients off of the streets of Vegas for all of the actual correct information they have. I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

My hypothesis is that the companies need so many bodies on the floor to handle the crowds that the real reps are mainly relegated to dealing with the large established clients like the Networks and studios and as you know, they meet in the special off of the floor rooms or at hospitality suites away from the hoi-polloi on the main floor.

Perhaps Jan can verify this but in my experience, it is common for the majority of the "reps" to be people who can stand out on the floor in a suit, handing out brochures and business cards and "trying" to answer questions, many of them uninformed and inane from the general public. Many have told me that they were hired just for NAB. Namy of them are clueless and it would not suprise me one bit if any of them lied or disparaged a competitors product.

There's a possibility that there's some truth to this -- but it doesn't explain what appeared on the screens in Sony's theater, or the conduct of the Sony people in the Panasonic booth, or a number of other things Sony did, etc..

But I would think that most, if not all, of the booths were set up similarly to how Panasonic did theirs -- so that the only people who would be in a position to answer questions or say things like that would be actual employees of the company, independent sales reps, or like us, independent consultants who don't work for the company but use the product and are knowledgeable in the areas of operation and workflow.

I would also think that there would be a vetting process so that anyone hired locally ("off the street") would act according to company policy. If I were running a booth, I would make sure of it -- too much at stake not to.

And additionally, if someone was hired who didn't know a thing about Sony's products, how would they know enough about the competitor's products to make such specific claims about it?

So . . . maybe, but Occam's razor does seem to cut both ways in this case.

 

[izoneguy]

Hi all:

One thing nobody has mentioned in this thread and I am surprised none of you more experiences NAB goers have mentioned it.

Most of the so-called "reps" at NAB booths might as well be transients off of the streets of Vegas for all of the actual correct information they have. I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

My hypothesis is that the companies need so many bodies on the floor to handle the crowds that the real reps are mainly relegated to dealing with the large established clients like the Networks and studios and as you know, they meet in the special off of the floor rooms or at hospitality suites away from the hoi-polloi on the main floor.

Perhaps Jan can verify this but in my experience, it is common for the majority of the "reps" to be people who can stand out on the floor in a suit, handing out brochures and business cards and "trying" to answer questions, many of them uninformed and inane from the general public. Many have told me that they were hired just for NAB. Namy of them are clueless and it would not suprise me one bit if any of them lied or disparaged a competitors product.

FWIW, IMHO Sony is running scared and as a company, they are headed for dire times. As someone who has dealt with Sony consumer electronics division as a retailer and with Sony's broadcast division as a producer and DP, Sony in general is an arrogant company that has lost touch with their customer base. They do make some great products but Panasonic, as a whole, has surpassed them in the marketplace. Sony used to own the industrial/broadcast market and Masushi*a was a distant second. Now Sony seems to be on the long, slow downhill slide and Masushi*a/Panasonic is leading the way. And then with companies like RED coming in, all of the rules are changing. But back to the subject at hand, yes, many of the so-called reps at NAB are really clueless and would probably say things that are disparaging.

Best,

Dan

Panasonic hires independent producer/shooters/editors as consultants. I was one this year. All the P2 workflow areas were handled by consultants. We know and understand the workflow. Customers could ask why we choose P2 over another system etc. I will relate one story in particular - A hearing imparied gentleman and his sign language translator came over to our area. His translator was signing as I was talking. He looked very confused. His translator said he wanted to see the HPX500 as he has seen all the ads for it in the trades, but was concerned because he had seen the "P2 is dead" banner over at Sony. I quickly stated P2 was not dead. New larger cards were coming out and Panasonic was expanding the lines with new P2 camcorders. He looked relieved. Later I saw them at the other booths and asked the translator if they had any questions. They had just ordered the HPX500.
I did not see the MicroSoft booth saying QuickTime was dead? I did not see the Apple booth with banners stating WMV HD was dead? The AVID booth never said FCP was dead? Why did Sony do what they did? Some mis-informed Ad Agency genius probably came up with the Sony "P2 is dead" slogan. It actually drove a ton of traffic over to the Panasonic booth. Thanks Sony!

 

[tnle2]

I am not saying that all of the reps are clueless but a large portion of them are. I have attended NAB for decades and all of the big manufacturers are guilty of it, Apple, AVID, Sony and Panasonic. I have received incorrect specs, information and speculation as well as outright lies from the "reps" of all of the above named manufacturers as well as some old timey reps from defunct companies like Play and NewTek.

I agree with you there. When I was at the last DVExpo show, the Sony reps manning the V1U stand seemed very green. The way they recited information was like they were reading from sales info given to them that morning. I asked one guy why the zoom and focus indicators can't show a numbered scale like the HVX200 and he has no clue what I was asking about. Likewise, a Panasonic rep came over to the Sony booth and asked ME what camera the V1U was. He honestly had no idea what it was despite it being introduced months ago at IBC.

With that said, I would have thought that NAB would have high quality reps being a show targeted at broadcast professionals. Either way, it doesn't surprise me what things are said by any company. My momma taught me to never trust a marketing guy.

FWIW, IMHO Sony is running scared and as a company, they are headed for dire times.

Now this I disagree with. I don't think this is accurate. All this does is fan more flames of hate. Maybe they're having problems at the corporate level or other divisions, but I think both Panasonic and Sony are doing well in the broadcast market and neither is "running scared." Here are sales figured released by Sony:

21,000 XDCAM sales worldwide - with 6,000 XDCAM HD sales in its inaugural year
31,000 HDCAM sales worldwide – including 3,400 HDCAM SR
4,300 live production camera sales globally
6,100 switchers sold around the world - including 1,100 HD models
370 SXRD 4K projectors sold

JVC is also doing well, selling something like 20,000 PRO-HD units. Everyone is doing well. I don't think anyone is "running scared."

If Sony was in such a dire situation and was really arrogant, they wouldn't be releasing the XDCAM-EX which is an extremely competitive product. It's giving us more of what we want: larger sensor, manual lens, variable frame rates, and open format solid-state recording. This is all good--people here should applauding Sony in order to make Panasonic listen. Afterall, it was all the applauding of the HVX200 and DVX100 that made Sony make the XDCAM-EX in the first place. So you should be saying "Hey Panasonic, look at what your competition is doing! You should now do something even better than that!" But instead, I'm hearing a lot of defensiveness again Sony. This is understandable sinse this is a Panasonic-centric board, but the smart thing to do when you want your "camp" to act, is to point out what the "other camp" is accomplishing.