New sony cam follows our beloved HVX

[tnle2]

I think with any solid state based camera you will always have the extra step of off-loading the footage to something else. The advantage of the XDCAM system is that you when you off-load to the professional disc, you already have your archive copy. When you off-load P2 to the P2 store, you still have to archive that data to another hard drive or something else. Also, the professional disc are rewritable and protected inside a case so they're not as fragile as just burning blu-ray disc. And if you acquire in XDCAM-HD, then archive to disc, the format, proxy and metadata all stay the same. So if you look at this objectively, the XDCAM system is actually very slick. It's well integrated and definitely worth a closer look.

 

[Simon Wyndham]

The P2 to me is a reusable intermediate, its not the final destination.

Same for XDCAM. The discs, and the cards are reusable. XDCAM discs are only the final destination if you choose them to be. Otherwise you can store the footage wherever you like, just like P2. The choice is yours.

but the EX is still going to have an extra step involved.

Just like P2. But also remember that the EX is part of the EX series. Sony will not just make a camera. You can bet your bottom Dollar that they have thought through the whole workflow and will be offering additional support products for it.

But the footage shot is liquid and can go anywhere I want it for long term storage with minimal drama. I'm not hooked in to one vendor for storage and content management needs.

Again, same for XDCAM. I keep all my footage archived on my discs, because I choose to. Not because I am forced to. XDCAM is file based just like P2, so you can keep your footage on whatever third party media or system you like.

But that still doesn't change the fact that Sony's XDCAM is the final destination for the material.

It isn't The final destination for material shot on XDCAM is wherever you want it to be. Be it HDCAM, DVCPRO, DVCAM, Digibeta, hard drives, DVD, or wherever else you want it to go. Where did you get the idea it has to go back to XDCAM disc?

 

[Simon Wyndham]

Tim Le, you have got it in one.

I think one reason the subject of tapeless systems can cause a lot of argument is because different people like the workflow they have, and so they don't want a different system to become the industry standard and force them into a way of working that they don't like (I know in my own case this is one reason I champion XD so much).

I'm still uncomfortable taking valuable stills photographs with a digital camera. After having corrupt cards from taking them out of the card reader at the wrong point I just don't trust them.

 

[harddrive]

XDCAM-HD though? Blah. Sooner or later they'll stop that and switch to an H.264 compression system. When they do, that will be a good day.

Sooner or later they will stop using MPEG2..... but I think it will be a very good day if they then move to a wavelet based compression system (as Red and Infinity are doing). AVC-Intra and any flavour of H264 may be more efficient than such as MPEG2, but they are still block systems. Staying with MPEG2 until edit systems are fully ready for such as JPEG2000 seems a good idea, rather than going for H264 in the interim.

 

[unfiltered]

Does Sony have no shame whatsoever?

shame (shm)
n.
1.
a. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.
b. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame?
2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation.
3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy.
4. A great disappointment.

Maybe?

 

[Huy Vu]

Kind of like when people were saying that the cinevate adapter was the best.. and it wasn't out.. and still isn't out and all that.

Uh, the Brevis is out, unless you're talking about some other accessories in their product line.

Hey I got some swamp.. ahhh I mean land.. for you to buy. Sight unseen. Talk about brand loyalty when the cam or footie even isn't out.
Speculation is crap! Give me what's here and now and tangible.

Agreed. One reason I keep seeing over and over against the Sony is "Sony camera doesn't product a film like image." And no one here has seen a single frame of what this camera can do! It's made even more ridiculous by the fact that tons of people have pointed out that it's not the camera, it's the operator. And yet we keep coming back to "the stock image isn't film like." It's like speaking to a vaccum. What is it with this ridiculous bias against the Sony? It feels like some HVX owners here are feeling threatened by this camera, sort of like when the HV20 was announced and A1 owners were afraid that it would undercut their $3500 camera. Fact is, we haven't seen it, haven't used it, and really don't know what it's capable of. Please don't bash it based on imaginary grievances; let's wait till it comes out.

 

[JitCam]

personally im not at all concerned with the new sony cam, im sure its great in its own respect.. the hvx is well enough for me at this moment in time, there's always a better camera out there.. what you do with the camera you have ..is what really matters.

 

[Flash Beaver]

Same for XDCAM. The discs, and the cards are reusable. XDCAM discs are only the final destination if you choose them to be. Otherwise you can store the footage wherever you like, just like P2. The choice is yours.

Just like P2. But also remember that the EX is part of the EX series. Sony will not just make a camera. You can bet your bottom Dollar that they have thought through the whole workflow and will be offering additional support products for it.

No I never bet my bottom dollar on these things. Sony, show something more about workflow and storage options OTHER than just external XDCAM drive and then you may have my attention. Must see it all together first before I ever shell one dime to Sony. We shall see.

It isn't The final destination for material shot on XDCAM is wherever you want it to be. Be it HDCAM, DVCPRO, DVCAM, Digibeta, hard drives, DVD, or wherever else you want it to go. Where did you get the idea it has to go back to XDCAM disc?

Dude, we were talking about final destination for storage, NOT distribution. You don't actually thinik I expect finished product or dailies to go on only one format do you?

 

[harddrive]

And I'm here to tell you my HVX200 without the P2 store would be like Cereal without the Milk. But the fact is, it is there right at the beginning with the system. It's proven to me to be extremely tough, never lost footage and is clipped right to my Tortlerig for 12-14 hour usage. I won't see a laptop until I'm back in the truck.

All very true, and what goes unsaid is that you are using this NOW - the forthcoming Sony line won't be available for a few months yet.

But to me, a great beauty of forums such as this is to be able to look and hopefully plan ahead. To try and avoid a costly purchase days before a new and better solution hits the shops. Nobody should be saying that "A is now out, time to throw away B and reequip" - but if you are looking to reequip soon, move away from tape say, then, hey, maybe waiting that little big longer can sometimes be a good idea.

As far as downloading goes, then it's worth bearing in mind that the highest quality setting of XDCAM systems is 35Mbs, so a 16GB card will store approx 16 mins with P2, but more like 45 minutes with XDCAM. Coupled with SxS cards being expected at around half the cost of the same size P2 card, that means you should be able to buy a 32 GB SxS card for the same as a 16GB P2 card. So - for the same cost - 90 minutes on SxS versus 16 minutes on P2! At those sort of price comparisons, you don't need 15 cards, more like 2,3, 4 at the outside, to see you through even a pretty hard day. (Three 16GB SxS cards should give a longer recording time than 15 8GB P2, at a fifth the price!!)

I'm currently working on DVCAM, and have now been keeping a close eye on tapeless developments for a couple of years. I'm not required to work HD at the moment (though it's only a matter of time) and find the Firestore a useful interim device to give me many tapeless benefits now. But it is only interim, and I've been keeping my fingers crossed that a suitable solid state solution arrives before I am forced to upgrade.

With the advent of SxS, I think my prayers may have been answered. Now when will we see a pro style 2/3" SxS camera...........? THAT is the big question.

 

[alpi69]

My take on this SONY cam (from someone who makes a living with the HVX and deals with networks in Europe):
P2 is a hassle over here. People want tape or XDCam. Simple as that. There are networks that don´t accept files or can´t even get them, because their editor is not online. Panasonic made such a big mistake with the P2 pricing. They crippled their marketshare by being greedy. They wanted to get their development costs in and forgot to create a market.
Don´t get me wrong: as you guys know I love the Panasonic cams, I own a Panasonic stillcamera, Panasonic Plasma at home. I like their products and their price-value relation. BUT in P2 they made it wrong. Best example is the current pricedrop of P2. Why did they not gradually do it. Why did we have such a problem with that French dealersite in January. I know people who went elsewhere because of the price of P2. And those who bought the Cam + cards not long ago are now pissed off , because their investment just lost 50%. And that is a lot even in IT. I still don´t know what it did good to the P2-technology to stick to the price for the 8GB card for so long. Now they have a marginal marketshare in Europe (compared to JVC and SONY and Canon) and no big productionhouse that doesn´t own P2 will invest in a P2 cardreader. But they do already invest in XDCam Readers, even if they don´t shoot XDcam themselves. (2 of my clients do, so that is a fact)

To the cam: If it is indeed a 1/2 chip cam with manual controls and variable framerates and modern EX cards it will wipe the floor with the HVX200, if Pana doesn´t respond properly. I will use my HVX the next 12 months and milk it as much as I can. But then I might be very interested into that XDcam EX camera.

But then again: I can see the HVX300 being maybe still 1/3 chip, but with 1080p var framerates, P2 adapters for Express-slotcard, a great EVF and LCD, maybe speedramp (changing the framerate during the shot), a 25x zoom from 28 - 700mm. One can dream...

 

[harddrive]

Panasonic made such a big mistake with the P2 pricing. They crippled their marketshare by being greedy. They wanted to get their development costs in and forgot to create a market.

I actually don't think they had much of a choice. For what they are (4 SD cards, raid controller, etc etc) the price is a pretty fair reflection. The real trouble is that that complexity is now no longer necessary - technology has moved on - and Panasonic now have Infinity snapping at one heel with Compact Flash, and Sony snapping at the other with SxS. And apart from the pricing issues, then whereas ExpressCard and CF are still very current architectures in new equipment, then Cardbus (on which P2 is based) is obsolescent. It's yet another example of why being first is not always a good thing!

Which all gives the decision makers at Panasonic some very, very hard choices to make in the next few months. Stick with P2, and try to ride out the storm, or move on, maybe to SxS themselves, with Panasonic codecs? I'd actually been expecting Sony to announce something using Memory Stick technology, and Panasonic to then counter with P2 MkII based on ExpressCard form factor, which is obviously the natural succesor to P2. What I certainly HADN'T been expecting was a Z1 type camera with a true manual lens and 1/2" chips. Those features alone really are revolutionary.

Frankly, as a freelancer, I hope Panasonic do move to SxS. It may be one hope of getting back near to the universal Beta nirvana. With maybe different codecs for different cameras/manufacturers, but at least with everybody working with the same physical media. (And one compatible with modern computers!) And with NLEs able to mix codecs on the timeline.

 

[alpi69]

Wouldn´t that be great! Both using the same medium! Unfortunately that seems not how big corporations work. They always try to make something different and then fight and argue about what is the better technology (bcause they invested so much into their own).
To us it would sure make sense. Buy a card and use it everywhere. Somehow like we had it in the DV-tape times. Go to a store, buy a card that works in any cam and shoot. I can imagine Canon to follow SONY there. But Panasonic? I hope Panasonic doesn´t the mistake and again puts the workflow last in their priority. Now that everyone is tapeless and P2 is not so revolutionary anymore (but boy do I love it) they need to not only make a camera that works, but also offer solutions (or find partners who do) that make editing and archivation easier.

 

[jake stutheit]

Sadly, i dont think well see 1 format acroos the board anytime soon. Big companies love their propietary formats. Especially Sony.

 

[cici]

Panasonic made such a big mistake with the P2 pricing.

Same situation here in Switzerland:

it's TOO LATE now for pricedrop: The TV-stations are being already changed from SD broadcast to HD broadcast since 2006 and I know about stations that changed from Panasonic equipment to Sony (the ENTIRE studio equipment!). Why? Just because the P2 cards are/were too expensive.

Panasonic could have sold dozens or hundreds of cards PER TV CHANNEL, so the costs for development could have been gained too instead of only selling to smaller customers in much smaller quantities.

Sell 1 million cards for 100 bucks or 10'000 for 1000 bucks....

These channels now are entirely Sony and will stay so for the next decade(s). They will buy ALL their equipment now from Sony.... think of the broadcast-vans!!! Or ANY device in the studio..... it's now all Sony. THAT is the big mistake from Panasonic.

P2 could have been a chance for Panasonic to even change Sony studios to Panasonic studios: as they HAD TO buy all equipment new, Panasonic could have made a good price for the P2 cards and should have invested in a good promotion directly for the TV stations.

I could personally attend one channel (there are dozens in small Switzerland) that changed location and equipement 180 degrees for a new era.... guess how: HD by XDCAM ..... Their workflow is with professional disc and they use all discs also directly for storage. They told me that they would have prefered the Panasonic workflow and would have bought some hundred P2 cards, but the price was too high.

This year the biggest swiss cablenet server will go digital and HD, so the swiss TV stations are about to change since 2006 from SD to HD.

Too late for pricedrop.....

 

[harddrive]

Sadly, i dont think well see 1 format acroos the board anytime soon. Big companies love their propietary formats. Especially Sony.

That's certainly been true in the past, but now we seem to be seeing the opposite. SxS doesn't seem to be a Sony propietary format, but rather one in conjunction with Sandisk - see http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=3770 . Is there any reason why any other manufacturer can't make use of it?

And if Panasonic don't adopt it, what do they do? Carry on with P2, at a price disadvantage, and less and less natively supported by the computer industry? Trouble for them is that ExpressCard is THE obvious successor to Cardbus and P2.

Alpi69 brings up the question of what Canon will now do, and to that we must wonder about JVC as well. If they both bring out SxS products, what happens then?

 

[SPZ]

That's certainly been true in the past, but now we seem to be seeing the opposite. SxS doesn't seem to be a Sony propietary format, but rather one in conjunction with Sandisk - see http://www.sandisk.com/Corporate/PressRoom/PressReleases/PressRelease.aspx?ID=3770 . Is there any reason why any other manufacturer can't make use of it?

And if Panasonic don't adopt it, what do they do? Carry on with P2, at a price disadvantage, and less and less natively supported by the computer industry? Trouble for them is that ExpressCard is THE obvious successor to Cardbus and P2.

Alpi69 brings up the question of what Canon will now do, and to that we must wonder about JVC as well. If they both bring out SxS products, what happens then?

Here's what I believe- and I may be totally wrong with this- P2 doesn't need to be as expensive as it is now, and doesn't need to follow its current architecture. Why? Hoodmann's response to P2.

Hoodman is making a P2 card with CF technology inside- using one flash memory card in a P2 closing. What our P2 cameras will see is another p2 card, and they'll not see the internal architecture.

We know that PCMIA can support 32bit transfer speeds up to 640mb per second. So the question is- can panasonic create an internal P2 architecture that is as fast as the current speed, troughput? Can they make this cheaper? They can do an internal raid with only two SD cards, and get a troughput of 400mb per second or more. Or use just a single fast SD card that could handle 300mb per second or more. I don't know if this is possible or not. But this theoretically is possible.

How fast will the Hoodman card be?

I don't think Panasonic will change the P2 casing. The internal structure can and will evolve, IMHO. The new sony and sandisks format will indeed put the pressure for cheaper P2. And P2 technology can evolve to to take this challenge. Don't forget Panasonic as got a full range, from low end to medium high end cameras using the format...And Sony only announced one...

EDIT- Also, the only reason one would need faster than 640mb/s would be to record either uncompressed or very low compression signals. For DVCPRO HD, XDCAM Mpeg 2 or even AVCINTRA or (why not?) Apple Pro 4:2:2, there's no such need. The current 640mb/s speed is good if you want to directly edit from the card- Essential for fast news broadcasts, but not that much important for anything else.

 

[Green Hornet]

Panasonic could make differnt types of P2 cases.
They have established the ability to raid memory.

They could raid SD, or Mini SD, or even Xd etc.
Then the customer can use the memory of their choice via having various P2 configurations where one would be able to insert the defined type of memory as desired.

They could make a non raided Compact flash case or other formats as well.
That way Panasonic does not have to be in the business of selling memory,
they can be in the business of selling P2 cases.

Why should panasonic care what type of memory you use. If you need a case to put into the camera, the profit can be made on the case.

Most people will need at least 3 cards (or cases). Currently it is expensive to buy
(3) P2 cards, but if they priced just the case, without actual memory,
Most people can buy 5 or more cases at a time, and most likely would.

 

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

I haven't read the full thread here but the last couple talking about the price and complexity of the card and that that is no longer a necessity. First the ptice has taken a totaly leap frog here with the intro of the soon to be delivered 16 GB card in May at $900. Secondly if you design you system for today, it will only be good for today. Keep in mind that you need around 30% above your topspeede requirement to word for the data rate, and that will give you real time transfer. That is what the systems can do today. There are and always will be systems that push the edge, perhaps next year the transfer path could double in band with so instaed of 1 GB a minute it can be 2 GB per minute. The P2 card will be there and able to do this. At a transfer of 640 Mbps, it will be a while before the systems catch up with the speed of the P2 card.

The P2 card was designed with the entire workflow in mind.

Hope that helps you all understand our decision.

Best,

Jan

 

[Barry_Green]

Buy a card and use it everywhere. Somehow like we had it in the DV-tape times. Go to a store, buy a card that works in any cam and shoot. I can imagine Canon to follow SONY there. But Panasonic?

That's what AVC-HD is all about. Industry-standard, non-proprietary media supported by all the manufacturers. You can use off-the-shelf SD cards from Kingston or Lexar or Panasonic or whoever. You can use regular mini-DVD discs. And all the major manufacturers (except JVC) are signed on to the coalition -- Sony, Panasonic, Canon, Sharp, Samsung, Sanyo, everybody.

 

[Barry_Green]

less and less natively supported by the computer industry? Trouble for them is that ExpressCard is THE obvious successor to Cardbus and P2.

ExpressCard is the obvious successor to Cardbus, yes. But does that make it an obvious successor to P2? Panasonic controls the future of P2 integration, they make readers and adapters of all types. And Duel offers an adapter to integrate into ExpressCard systems. I really don't get this attitude of "oooh, expresscard is common in PCs so that means P2 is obsolete" mentality that Sony's trying to push. It's ridiculous.

Besides, who's to say that Panasonic won't design the next generation of P2 cards to have a removable plug-in ExpressCard central component? As in, look at how a miniSD card works -- it's a small card that can be plugged into a fullsize SD adapter.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208081

Why couldn't Panasonic do something like that? The answer is: of course they could. They could make ExpressCard media that fits in a P2-sized shell for use in the roughly 50,000 P2 systems out there (yes, about 3x as many P2 systems as there are XDCAM systems) and have a removable ExpressCard core that could be used in the new laptops.

Have they announced such a system? No, but they'd be stupid to not be thinking about it. I suggested it to them months ago, and I'm sure they'd already thought of it on their own. If the CardBus form factor becomes an issue, and ExpressCard becomes an advantage, they'll be able to migrate very easily.

Alpi69 brings up the question of what Canon will now do, and to that we must wonder about JVC as well. If they both bring out SxS products, what happens then?

Canon won't go SxS, they're going AVC-HD. Standard SD memory cards, or mini-DVD discs. JVC hasn't expressed any interest in going to any type of memory-card recording yet.