AuditoryVisuals
Well-known member
David S. said:
A lot of people (myself included) are exited about the RED ONE. So why not get exited about another RED camera?
RED Digital Cinema anounces small camera
- Thread starter AuditoryVisuals
- Start date
A lot of people (myself included) are exited about the RED ONE. So why not get exited about another RED camera?
snowleopard said:
Well, as arguments go, that's pretty stupid. Ferrari has been around for well over half a century and somehow their business model works, and I haven't heard anyone call them and their marketing/promotion methods "bogus". You do know, don't you, that there's a 2 year waiting list on any new Ferrari you might want to order? How has that hurt Ferrari? Last I heard they were extremely profitable. So, if you place an order for a Ferrari, you'll wait 2 years - somewhat longer than if you placed the very first order for a RED camera back at Nab 2006. So what's your problem with saying it's a "bogus" marketing method? And you know, if you really want a Red camera immediately, you can get it exactly the same way you can get a Ferrari immediately - by paying way more than list for it. There's always a price at which the first Red owners will be willing to part with their just received camera... you can test that in a few weeks. Answers your question. Same as Ferrari - or any number of consumer and professional products... if you can't think of any, we can make a list for you. None of them "bogus". Anything else?
I guess everybody has different reasons for reading about NAB 07. I know I check threads and updates to see what hardware/software is being displayed and what will be available very soon.
The only thing that was said about a new Red camera was a "A new Professional Pocket Camera". Just a little inside info from a Red person to a blogger at Studio Daily. No prototype or details, etc.
There seem to be two camps regarding the reaction to this. Those that like to speculate with their imagination, and those that just want to see what will be available in reality, so they can break down specs, get excited, and debate.
I personally get bored with conjecture.
The only thing that was said about a new Red camera was a "A new Professional Pocket Camera". Just a little inside info from a Red person to a blogger at Studio Daily. No prototype or details, etc.
There seem to be two camps regarding the reaction to this. Those that like to speculate with their imagination, and those that just want to see what will be available in reality, so they can break down specs, get excited, and debate.
I personally get bored with conjecture.
SomewhereinLA
Well-known member
OldCorpse said:
You must be joking, Ferrari has never made a profit, Fiat keep putting money into it... Which is ok, the point is prestige not profit. Same with Aston Martin. On the other hand, people should stop comparing cars and video cameras...LOL.
The fact is after 3 NAB's, RED is still not shipping a camera. They have said they'll be shipping next month every other month... It will be interesting to see what happens...
tverhaar
Active member
RED and everything after
RED and everything after
I REALLY don't have a stake in this "RED thing" either way but I can't help but point out that the Ferrari analogy is a little weak. After all, Ferrari has been delivering a product for decades and their backlog has a lot more to do with the fact that they have delivered up to their customers expectations (and beyond) for most of this time., rather than any trumped up "hype" as a marketing method. I am sure the RED guys are talented and respectable and I, for one, don't have a problem with their approach. (Note: I never even heard of RED until a few weeks ago and I doubt I'll ever own one of their cameras - but they sure seem cool!)
Anyway, if you are going to defend them, it would seem to me to be more effective just to do so on the merits of their product and their people - or at least a more aligned analogy.:smile:
RED and everything after
OldCorpse said:
I REALLY don't have a stake in this "RED thing" either way but I can't help but point out that the Ferrari analogy is a little weak. After all, Ferrari has been delivering a product for decades and their backlog has a lot more to do with the fact that they have delivered up to their customers expectations (and beyond) for most of this time., rather than any trumped up "hype" as a marketing method. I am sure the RED guys are talented and respectable and I, for one, don't have a problem with their approach. (Note: I never even heard of RED until a few weeks ago and I doubt I'll ever own one of their cameras - but they sure seem cool!)
Anyway, if you are going to defend them, it would seem to me to be more effective just to do so on the merits of their product and their people - or at least a more aligned analogy.:smile:
Fiat bought Ferrari, but Ferrari was profitable anyway. The reason Fiat bought is for prestige, but they're not losing money on it.
And if we're not supposed to compare cars and cameras, then we can compare cameras and something else. Point is, it's not a rap against Red that they have taken pre-orders. Many, many, many businesses take pre-orders and are successful, and are not vaporware. Taking pre-orders is not in and of itself a bad business model or "bogus" marketing - that was my only point. Plenty of businesses do that.
And if we're not supposed to compare cars and cameras, then we can compare cameras and something else. Point is, it's not a rap against Red that they have taken pre-orders. Many, many, many businesses take pre-orders and are successful, and are not vaporware. Taking pre-orders is not in and of itself a bad business model or "bogus" marketing - that was my only point. Plenty of businesses do that.
Nik Manning
Well-known member
snowleopard said:
Okay if you order a RED camera today you can expect it in January. http://www.red.com/news/view/79
This is cutting edge technology the first 1,000 customers are in the bleeding edge stage. The problem is RED has a great product for a great price and supply is having a hard time matching demand. It happens. I think that there business model has worked incredibly well for them. They got over 1000 people to put $1,000 on a cam that they never seen. If it works it is a good business model buddy.
tverhaar said:
No analogy is ever perfect - it's an analogy not a perfect copy. However, the point I debunked was that you can't say that just the fact that they take pre-orders is in and of itself "bogus". I gave the example of Ferrari - perfectly valid. Now, you move the goal posts to say "take pre-orders and be a successful business". Note, you just modified the statement. Well, Red is put out by a company that is successful in business! Oh, ok, time to move the goal posts again: "take pre-orders and is a successful business, and a business in the exact same area". And so on. Look, the point is simple: the argument was that just the fact of taking pre-orders by itself is a "bogus" method - I say it is not, and I give examples - at which point you modify the statement, so I'll have to modify (in response) the example. None of this matters, because the statement that it's bogus based solely on pre-orders is bogus itself.
I'm not a cheerleader for RED, but I don't see your points on how they've rolled the camera and accessories out?
Unlike every other mfg., they polled us as users to discover the feature-set we needed for digital cinema and other disciplines. That process started not too long ago - certainly not three NAB events ago.
We've been able to have open discussions with Jim and his incredible team - I've never been invited to converse with Sony. Jan and Panasonic see the value in conversing with their core market, and it's paid off in spades with the first generation HVX.
RED has been 100% plus transparent in their R&D and introduction of the ONE and the accessories for same. They've always stated that "subject to change" was the universal caveat for specifications, dates of release and everything between.
So, what's the problem? If you order a RED today, you'll receive it by January 2008. The people taking delivery of their cameras in the weeks to come know that they'll have limited functionality as their beta units will be released under the eventual full specification benchmark.
Conversely, Jim and RED could withhold the lumps until everything is right - according to their map, sometime in August or September. If I were in the first batch, I'd take the beta camera and do what I could with it.
Be thankful that Jannard has done the impossible. If you don't like it, there are plenty of offerings from the competition and they'd be happy to take your money as well.
e
Unlike every other mfg., they polled us as users to discover the feature-set we needed for digital cinema and other disciplines. That process started not too long ago - certainly not three NAB events ago.
We've been able to have open discussions with Jim and his incredible team - I've never been invited to converse with Sony. Jan and Panasonic see the value in conversing with their core market, and it's paid off in spades with the first generation HVX.
RED has been 100% plus transparent in their R&D and introduction of the ONE and the accessories for same. They've always stated that "subject to change" was the universal caveat for specifications, dates of release and everything between.
So, what's the problem? If you order a RED today, you'll receive it by January 2008. The people taking delivery of their cameras in the weeks to come know that they'll have limited functionality as their beta units will be released under the eventual full specification benchmark.
Conversely, Jim and RED could withhold the lumps until everything is right - according to their map, sometime in August or September. If I were in the first batch, I'd take the beta camera and do what I could with it.
Be thankful that Jannard has done the impossible. If you don't like it, there are plenty of offerings from the competition and they'd be happy to take your money as well.
e
tverhaar
Active member
OldCorpse said:
OC - Whoa Guy. You are on a rant. You quoted me but went on to mix all sorts of points into your discussion that had NOTHING to do with what I said. It wasn't me who said anything about business models or success or most of anything else that you mentioned. I didn't set or move your goal posts... or your cheese, for that matter. Beyond that, I'll be honest with you - you COMPLETELY lost me on what the hell it is you are against - or in favor of - or not against... or not in favor of.. or...??:undecided
I definitely think you should make your point by NOT buying one of their camers!... or , er, buying one of their cameras?! Whatever. Just note that I don't have a problem with them - just with a weak analogy.
arrestthisman
Well-known member
hmmmm.... I may use one of the red cameras one of these days(years?), and I don't think there's anything wrong with the excitement going with it, but I have to agree. nothing's shipping yet.
It's fun to speculate and such, I don't think we'll be dissapointed when it arrives, but I've been on the boards glued to my computer with all of the announcements.
I need to get back to work. hehe
When they finally arrive it will affect me, but I wouldn't base my future workflow on something that isn't in my hand yet.
just my opinion...and I'm never right about anything, so don't listen to me.
It's fun to speculate and such, I don't think we'll be dissapointed when it arrives, but I've been on the boards glued to my computer with all of the announcements.
I need to get back to work. hehe
When they finally arrive it will affect me, but I wouldn't base my future workflow on something that isn't in my hand yet.
just my opinion...and I'm never right about anything, so don't listen to me.
Well... I think it would be one of those Helmet cams running around but with the RED magic all over it. It would work: Every sports man and woman would like to have one (price wise) in their helmets, bikes, and shows like the Nascar and F1 would be interested in filling their cars with tiny shiny REDs that spits 2k wavelet without a sweat. Even security or webcams (although a little overkill, but who cares?) would be in their interest.
Market? Everything, everywhere...
Market? Everything, everywhere...
snowleopard
Well-known member
Thanks Nik Manning for answering my question straight up. That link you sent should be Red's home page. It will take roughly 9 months from now to deliver; I'll pass and see what else shows up between now and then from rival companies. If Red is ramped up at that time, and the product holds true, I'll consider their product. Until then, I'll wait and see.
Old Corpose - I have no idea why you quoted me, I made zero reference to Ferarri in my post.
My main complaint about Red isn't their people making the gear, or the gear's potential itself, it's their methods of advertising which are not forthright and honest in my eyes. I find it to be bad business practice to advertise and sell their camera the way they have.
My much bigger complaint is that people just swallow it up about how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or even actually seeing it. And more importantly, completely ignoring the advertising practices I noted in my previous paragraph, and treating them as acceptable.
I'm out.
Old Corpose - I have no idea why you quoted me, I made zero reference to Ferarri in my post.
My main complaint about Red isn't their people making the gear, or the gear's potential itself, it's their methods of advertising which are not forthright and honest in my eyes. I find it to be bad business practice to advertise and sell their camera the way they have.
My much bigger complaint is that people just swallow it up about how it's the bee's knees, without owning it, using it, or even actually seeing it. And more importantly, completely ignoring the advertising practices I noted in my previous paragraph, and treating them as acceptable.
I'm out.
Red will come I dont think theres any reason to doubt it. And to be honest if there actually was I think you would find Jarred telling us what he knew.
One thing I did notice though was this:
July - Serial #101-300. (Partially enabled feature set)
What's a partially enabled feature set?
One thing I did notice though was this:
July - Serial #101-300. (Partially enabled feature set)
What's a partially enabled feature set?
I think they somewhat break down what will be missing now.
"April - May - Serial #1-12
June - Serial #13-100. (Partially enabled feature set)
July - Serial #101-300. (Partially enabled feature set)
August - Serial #301-550 (90% enabled feature set)
September - Serial #551-1000 (98% enabled feature set)
October - Serial #1001-1700 (Fully enabled feature set)
November - Serial #1701- 2500
December - Serial #2501- 3500
All cameras will ship with the capability to record 4k REDCODE RAW to RED DRIVE, view on the RED EVF or LCD, and have shutter options from day one. Record RGB options will be one of the last options to be enabled."
"April - May - Serial #1-12
June - Serial #13-100. (Partially enabled feature set)
July - Serial #101-300. (Partially enabled feature set)
August - Serial #301-550 (90% enabled feature set)
September - Serial #551-1000 (98% enabled feature set)
October - Serial #1001-1700 (Fully enabled feature set)
November - Serial #1701- 2500
December - Serial #2501- 3500
All cameras will ship with the capability to record 4k REDCODE RAW to RED DRIVE, view on the RED EVF or LCD, and have shutter options from day one. Record RGB options will be one of the last options to be enabled."
Nik Manning
Well-known member
Okay maybe we should look at it like this. RED is shipping a camera in January 2008 that shoots 4k and is supported by final cut pro for around 30k with lens. You can go to their website now and put down 10% to order. RED is no longer taking reservations. The first 1000 folks that reserved a RED camera were on the Bleeding edge of the red revolution.
snowleopard said:
Well you have to see if there is a good market for a product before a company can commit to investing large sums of money to bring it to market. No one was forcing people to preorder.
If you have been following other company's product lines for the last several years, SONY, Panasonic, Canon you would realize those companies will NOT have anything to compete with RED in the same price range, Now or ever, well until their bottom lines bottom out that is.
After years of the existing video companies stringing people along with very incremental updates people were ready for something new and revolutionary and RED is that company.