Here are my Canon HV20 Clips just filmed!

And as far as the image quality is concerned, what's your opinion Barlow?

Comparing both models (aside any pre-idea on PRO vs. consumer aims) but including the sharpness as a relevant parameter though not the only one.

:dankk2: again,
E.

EDIT -- You beat me (but we all are thinking the same) Mark! :laugh:
 
Yeah, all these concerns are quite valid. They could have an answer from who has both cameras but it seems Elton doesn't want to help as far as the sharpness comparision... Or cannot he or cannot it?

By the way, Elton are you working for Canon? It seems you have all the new models...
 
Mark Dog said:
and picture quality elton as far as the comparision ?????
Click to expand...

Picture quality, IMO, can be as good or better than the A1/G1/H1. In fact, it has a different quality altogether which is very very smooth. Very good highlight rolloff and distant detail retention. Color is much better than expected from a single chip--in fact--to me it suggests that 3 chip isn't altogether necessary with a good CMOS sensor and excellent RGB filtering.

Much less noisy than I expected and in lowlight it's reasonably tolerable. Fine dancing luma grain/grit like the A1/H1 but different in its own way.

For its price, it's a total no-brainer. A1/G1/H1 owners will need it for a capture deck, but will also find it to be extremely useful in lots of situations. It can put out an amazing image, but is far less tweakable than its siblings. That said, it has an exceptional amount of features and image control for an consumer camera.

Bottom line: It's a palmcorder that's WAAAAAAY overachieving. :)

Gordon--no, I don't work for Canon.
 
In the professional digital cam market we see a view CMOS concepts and mostly all new cams are 3 chippers, like all the Nikons. The best CMOS concepts are included in the Canon development. Canon knows how to make CMOS work, and has great processing software, image controls and UI. Canon knows how to make broadcast lenses. You clearly can see how the digital cam knowledge and technology is pushing or driving the video camcorder developments.

Size matters, in lenses (only 43mm on the HV20), and in sensors (size 1/2.7 "). If you build a palmcam like this one, size and weight -costs- matters for the consumer too. Now you need to make compromises. I don't think the image quality is on par with the just released models A1/G1, these models have another target and less compromises in image quality versus size and weight and costs, although even there those decisions are made. Controlling the image is more important to that group, but raw image quality even so.

Definition, sharpness, color, wide shot detail, it is better in the A1/G1/ H1 in my opinion. But the HV20 cam is great as B roll, as tapefeeder, as second cam, and for all that think the size and money for the Panasonic HVX200, Canon A1/G1/ H1, Sony V1, is one step to high. It is shooting filmcadense, it gives you some tweakability and that is for such a small cam a really good start. It has HDMI, cool!

I might have one, to get a feel on it.
 
I've sparred with xray before, but on this post I'll agree 100%. The HV20 isn't in the same class as the XHA1. It's 1/4 the price for some good reasons. I haven't explored it extensively, but from my first day of shooting and fooling around with it, there's no way I'd consider it an equal to, or in the same general league as, an XHA1.

The HV20 is going to be a massive hit, because it delivers absolutely amazing price/performance ratio. I got mine for $925 ($937 including shipping!) That's completely untouchable. If price has kept someone from getting into the 24p game, it's wide open now. But that price does come at some expense, and extraordinary red/green fringing is part of that expense, which contributes to an overall blur at full telephoto.

It's a fantastic cam for the money. Just realize that it's very little money.
 
I agree with Barry. I wasn't really referring to the overall "class" of camera, just that I've seen a core image that can hold its own with the others. The lens doesn't have much reach and the bokeh is a little funky, but in skilled hands the camera can put out a phenomenal picture. Haven't really seen the extreme fringing you've noted, Barry. On the wide end I see very little CA, which is good news for potential 35mm adapter users.

Wow, $925? That's astounding.
 
It is indeed astounding. The fringing happens at full telephoto; I'm still experimenting so I don't want to commit to any images until I think I know the camera well enough. Very impressive for the price.
 
Elton said:
Picture quality, IMO, can be as good or better than the A1/G1/H1.
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WOW This is an astounding statement !!

Mr. Barry, I think what Elton meant or want to mean is on the HV20 picture quality comparision (sharpness etc) over the A1/G1. Not controls or other stuff. Price aside.
 
That's what I'm saying -- no way does an HV20 compare to an XHA1 in overall picture quality. Maybe direct head-to-head you'd say that the HV20 has a tad more dynamic range or something, but the A1 looks better. As it should, since it costs 4x as much.
 
Interesting. I certainly need more time with an HV20 (buying one soon) but I'm not terribly efficient with how I express myself.

No, I wouldn't trade an A1 for it, but there is something to be said about the fact that is doing true 1080 progressive scan on CMOS. It's totally subjective, but to my eyes, the camera has a unique quality in 24p mode that's quite nice. First of all, less edge enhancement and less pixel twitter/aliasing that I've sometimes seen on very fine, distant diagonal lines (think telephone/power lines) with the H1 and A1.

I just like it. :)
 
Barry, this time, I am with Barlow. Actually, as usual. :) Considering the consensus around his wise findings as well he used to post.

Succeeding this:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=599180&postcount=39

And here is the previous test and its results:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?p=579582&postcount=17

60 i vs. 24F

XH-A1 60i:
824.3 Lines Horizontal (MTF50); 810 Lines Horizontal = Limit@Nyquist
674.8 Lines Vertical (MTF50)

XH-A1 24F:
810 Lines Horizontal (Limit@Nyquist)
590.4 Lines Vertical (MTF50)

Canon HV10:
784.5 Lines Horizontal
704.8 Lines Vertical

And if confirmed the Barlow's first impressions on his findings as there's no losses at 24p, I just can confirm what my eyes have seen comparing the three Canon models:

There's no virtual (so much) differences, or even significant differences. I'd like to say "nor even definition differences" and taking that info coming from that Tom Roper's test, maybe we could say theoretically, at least.

Subjectively speaking, yes there's differences and I'd take the Barlow's words as mine: «but there is something to be said about the fact that is doing true 1080 progressive scan on CMOS. It's totally subjective, but to my eyes, the camera has a unique quality in 24p mode that's quite nice. First of all, less edge enhancement and less pixel twitter/aliasing that I've sometimes seen on very fine, distant diagonal lines (think telephone/power lines) with the H1 and A1».

I've had the same impression on RED footage vs. F900 models, for instance. More pleasant filmic/cinematic. Is the answer coming from the CMOS chip?
 
It might be interesting to post a "blind" test comparison and let the experts guess which came from which camera...I'd do it myself but I only have the HV20 and a DVX100!

Just a thought... :)
 
I had that exact same thought. But I wouldn't do it with an HVX, I'd dig up an HD100 or FX1 or something just so it'd be HDV vs. HDV... I wish I still had an XHA1 here, that'd be the ideal thing to do that comparison with.
 
Barry_Green said:
I got mine for $925 ($937 including shipping!) That's completely untouchable.
Click to expand...

Wow, where did you find that price at?.. Please share Barry. I am thinking of pulling the trigger of this sweet little camera and that price will definitely sway me.
Thanks in advance.
Taj
 
e-steve said:
It might be interesting to post a "blind" test comparison and let the experts guess which came from which camera...I'd do it myself but I only have the HV20 and a DVX100!

Just a thought... :)
Click to expand...
Good idea e-steve, and we should ask Mr. Xray, the greatest esceptic of our little HV20, to discover which piece of footage come from the HV20 and which come from those expensive cameras he is so infatuated with.
 
prisma said:
Good idea e-steve, and we should ask Mr. Xray, the greatest esceptic of our little HV20, to discover which piece of footage come from the HV20 and which come from those expensive cameras he is so infatuated with.
Click to expand...

Welcome to dvxuser Prisma. I don't like your setup to name me 'the greatest esceptic of our HV20'. You see this little cam as 'our' cam and that I am against 'your cam'. Its not a war, me against the cam you are willing to buy. That is not the case. Each cam has its goods and bads.

You are free to ask questions here, but not on this personal tone.
 
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