David Stump quote after RED shoot.

Homersapien said:
It's a quote, he probably gave an actual line for the red team to use until he publishes his report, they can sound a bit political in that sense. He wouldn't say it's better than 35mm film because it's not suppose to be. Digital is a different media and can be used in in conjuction, in opposition or even to imitate film. It doesn't escape the fact that his quote is a very positive one indeed and the fact one was given anyway is a sign that he liked very much what he saw. He'll be publishing his findings on cinematography.net i believe, probably over the next few days.
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Okay, looking forward to the whole text. Maybe that will clear things up.
From my own perspective, that statement reads like one you would give someone when trying to soften some bad news. Had he said 'I really like this camera, read my upcoming report to find out why'. That would have been a great one liner.
Hope I'm wrong.
 
donatello said:
"wonder what they'll say to that on cinematography.com"

i have a list of a few locals ( SF area ) that post over there which i feel they were just too insulting to RED team .. when RED 103 arrives they will NEVER see it or use it ...
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I only personally know one RED reservation holder and he's quite convinced the thing will never work and he has a pretty good technical reason to support his opinion. Nothing achieved to date negates that view either.

Despite that he holds reservations for more than one RED.

In the end what anyone THINKS matters nought. ALL that matters is what gets delivered, saying it'll work will not make it so anymore than saying it will not will stop Jim's team from delivering. In the end it's a business decision. You're investing $1,000 for a time. If RED delivers you'll have done very nicely out of your investment, if they fail, absolute worst case scenario you're out of pocket $1,000. Sounds like about the best odds I've seen for a long time, how many bookmakers say they'll give you your money back if the horse doesn't win?
Don't anyone be surprised to discover that the worst detractors are all holding reservations. In business when you think you've made a good bet the last thing you want is everyone else getting in on the act.
 
robroysyd said:
I only personally know one RED reservation holder and he's quite convinced the thing will never work and he has a pretty good technical reason to support his opinion. Nothing achieved to date negates that view either.
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Well welcome Bob Bummer to the party.

wah waaaahhhhh (muted trumpet)
 
I feel like every day I read one of these threads and have little to post beyond "that's amazing/fantastic/fascinating." It just keeps getting better, whether I sound like a broken record or not.
 
robroysyd: and what would that "pretty good technical reason" be? If he thinks something will not work out why not say so? Gives us a way to respond about it and make sure it is a non-issue.
 
Brook Willard--I feel like every day I read one of these threads and have little to post beyond "that's amazing/fantastic/fascinating." It just keeps getting better, whether I sound like a broken record or not.
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Brook, I honestly feel the same way. So, here is to continued success RED TEAM, etc,etc.
 
good news indeed. I am not going to lose my head over anything yet..not until that camera is in my hands. I will just hope that the ridiculous leaps and bounds the Red team keeps making continue into 07 and production! That being said, it is becoming harder and harder to maintain my optimism at the "cautious" level.
__________________
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Yep i can relate to that. Each time i log onto DVXuser i love all the good news but i also fear the really bad news. There are plenty of things that can still go wrong but in all probability if something does go wrong it might well be something they just cant fix? Can anyone think of an issue that could crop up? We know about thermal transfer and Red are working on that what else could be a major problem? Anyone?

Michael
 
Rob Lohman said:
robroysyd: and what would that "pretty good technical reason" be? If he thinks something will not work out why not say so? Gives us a way to respond about it and make sure it is a non-issue.
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Completely agree with you Rob. I like to hear those technical reasons that he think RED cam' wouldn't work, beside it can help RED team to improve or find remedies.
 
Rob Lohman said:
robroysyd: and what would that "pretty good technical reason" be? If he thinks something will not work out why not say so? Gives us a way to respond about it and make sure it is a non-issue.
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Heat.
I believe other teams have gotten to much the same point but heat dissipation has been the stumbling block. My bet / hope is that recent improvements in silicon will help overcome this issue. If not I can think of a few solutions but they'd require some ingenious engineering.
Even so, silicon is getting better all the time, it's got to be only a matter of time before someone manages to build such a camera. Hopefully that'll be the RED team. They're nimble enough to try new ways of solving the problem.
 
Y.Goh said:
Completely agree with you Rob. I like to hear those technical reasons that he think RED cam' wouldn't work, beside it can help RED team to improve or find remedies.
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I've read in a couple of magazines that many people still think a single chip cmos camera can not get the same range of color as a 3 chip camera with a prism. The latest was an article in showreel.
'They' say using a debayer algorithm looses a lot of color. Beyond that it gets too technical for me.
I'm not choosing sides, just relaying info. I heard that alot a NAB 2006.
In the end, the only thing that matters is the output. You can't argue with quality. RED is already putting that out in spades.
 
Best to way is to just look at 1Ds MKII body's evironmental seal. That thing just wouldn't quit even in the most harsh weather, and I took it everywhere!
 
zeke said:
I've read in a couple of magazines that many people still think a single chip cmos camera can not get the same range of color as a 3 chip camera with a prism. The latest was an article in showreel.
'They' say using a debayer algorithm looses a lot of color. Beyond that it gets too technical for me.
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Besides the chromatic abberation and long back focus you get from having prism (can never make a glass close to theoritical model, you'll always have some defect and what not), the prism is such a good color filter that you almost throw away the light that has wavelength between G and R, and also between B and G. Therefore, if you have a monochroamtic light that's between B and G, say, it is not captured by the sensor, or may be barely. Alway need an overlap between R, G and B, the slope and overlap allow the designer to extract the monochromatic light between primary colors. Graeme once wrote to me stating that as the rez' increases and therefore pixels density (pixels/mm^2) also goes up, Bayer Demosaiking algorithm get more accurate due to the fact that every pixel don't contain as much information (lots of redundancy). RED's pixel density is 34345 or linear pixel density of 185.2 pixels/mm. You barely need optical low pass filter. That's more than Nikon D2X!

zeke said:
I'm not choosing sides, just relaying info. I heard that alot a NAB 2006.
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Those guys just try to depreciate their 1/3" and 2/3" CCD manufacturing line in their book. May be is cheaper to start propaganda than scrapping the equipment and build a new CMOS line.
 
too hot to handle?

too hot to handle?

> I believe other teams have gotten to much the same point but heat dissipation has been the stumbling block.

I would be interested to know what other groups have made a 4k-res camera prototype demonstrating good image quality and the project was canceled because of a heat dissipation problem.

The community of folks overclocking their gaming PCs are dissipating hundreds of watts from their CPUs so it doesn't seem like an insoluble problem. Not that you'd want to if you didn't have to, but liquid cooling with microchannel heat sinks can dissipate more than 1 kilowatt (!) per square centimeter. This is not new tech. It was demonstrated back in the 1980s. See for example http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4573067.html based on the original paper: Tuckerman, D. B. and Pease, R. F. W., High Performance Heat Sinking for VSLI, IEEE Electron Device Letters, vol. EDL-2, No. 5 (May 1981).

For a more recent review see http://electronics-cooling.com/html/2005_nov_article2.html.
 
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zeke said:
forgive me if I sound like a curmudgeon, but that statement does not say he thinks the camera is better than 35mm film, only that it's resolution is as high or higher than 35mm and it's colors are 'clean'. Very carefully worded it seems. Almost like a politician. Quantitative vs Qualitative.

Is there somewhere that has more text, that can't be all he said is it?

Joe C.
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Well when your only goal is to get the cleanest matte humanely possible. Those two points are the most important aspects. So if he says that resolution and "cleanness" of the image are better than 35mm film then he is effectively saying "this will generate better mattes than film." That doesn't mean the RED camera is going to produce beautiful sunsets, perfect skin tones or would be a good choice on a sitcom. It means your alpha generation is going to be easy.

So the next question is: what's the quality of the image inside of that matte? Footage that is really good for pulling a key can look terrible.

- Gavin
 
Rob Lohman said:
It's not something we've forgotten! :)
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I'm 110% certain it's not something you've forgotten, I'd hazard a guess it's been your prime concern since day 1.

Taking a 4K (or beyond) image is nothing new, DSLRs have been doing it for quite a while, from memory the very first images RED posted were exactly that.
Cameras that take images at x fps have also been around for decades, wavelet encoding schemes now offer a better way to save the data and large capacity disks / flash memory provide a way to store it.
The challenge is to clock a large sensor fast, process and encode the data and store it somewhere. Then fit all of that in a manageable sized package without anything cooking. As Jim has acknowledge heat and sensors don't mix, as temperature goes up so does noise.
To get Frankie to the stage he's at is a great milestone but one that was achieveable. My gut feeling is that the project is now in uncharted waters.
Despite what some seem to think I'm not being a detractor, quite the opposite. It takes a brave man to sail into unchartered waters and an equally brave team to sail there with him. To do it under the public's gaze is an even braver act. Let's face it, if everyone thought RED was going to succeed then it's not much of an achievement if they do. It's when someone pulls off something that no one else thought could be done that we have the tickertape parades. Sure we should all be there cheering them on as they try but let's not loose sight of the fact that they are trying to reach a difficult goal. It's not as simple as them doing something that Sony or Panasonic wouldn't do, they're trying to do something that the big boys thought couldn't be done and done at any price. Even if RED cost 10x what it's planned price is it'd still be a major achievement when it works.
 
"The challenge is to clock a large sensor fast, process and encode the data and store it somewhere. " But this is already working in the lab!

"My gut feeling is that the project is now in uncharted waters." The only uncharted water on this project was the sensor. Once that was fired up and worked, the rest becomes "just" very hard, complex and tough engineering. Not saying it's easy, not saying that at all. It's very hard, and everyone on the project knows that.
 
With all due respect Rob, to make a long story short, could you please list out all of the technical issues beside HEAT.

Big companies have their own reasons for not doing certain products, not always a technical ones. Sony's R&D labs have so much advance semiconductor technologies. Canon could easily makes a medium format CMOS sensor with the lowest dark currents in the market, but .......
 
1 vs 3 chips

1 vs 3 chips

zeke said:
I've read in a couple of magazines that many people still think a single chip cmos camera can not get the same range of color as a 3 chip camera with a prism. The latest was an article in showreel.
'They' say using a debayer algorithm looses a lot of color.
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Putting aside the theory, Bayer-type sensors seem to be good enough for the professional still photography market. There are some demanding people in that field and they don't seem to be complaining about single-sensor color performance. As far as I know, you cannot buy a 3-CCD still camera at any price.
 
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