editing 4K at home...

[Haakon]

Haakon,

I disagree. Even without a 4k display device (which is not stopping interest a the camera) working with online material is the only practical solution of any effects work, indie guys are more used to online from a DV background, and the online really takes less space and time as you don't need to render out proxies.

With all due respect, of course you disagree - you have a stake in the alternative.

Let's put it this way; I'd edit my 1080 HVX footage at DV resolutions if Panasonic offered the option. When I'm under the gun and have to get a picture lock as soon as possible, the last thing I want to wait around for are long render times, dropped frames due to increased server load, and lack of any ability to display realitime output to a normal NTSC monitor from my timeline. I know that (for me, anyway), the same will hold up when I cut RED footage. I have no reason to need a full 4K raster while I'm determining how my scenes are going to flow. In fact, I'd be happy as a clam to use a 480p proxy to cut the stuff I've shot with RED. Editing is about the rhythm and the flow of the material, the use of space and the way one clip juxtaposes with the next - and you can determine that whether you're viewing a video on an iPod or an IMAX feature on a giant dome. Sure, full 4K frames will be vital for FX-heavy shows and if you've got an expensive system that can handle the load, then that's great. But unless there's an issue with focus that needs to be verified, the only time I want to deal with my footage in 4K is when I'm exporting my final master for showing on a big screen.

 

[Anders Holck]

Thanks for the info. So if I was shooting redcode raw would I only be able to shoot 24fps? Anders said something about the goal of this format reaching 30fps. Does that mean I could shoot 2k at a higher framerate, or am I alltogether wrong?

All current RED specs are based on estimated performance and abilities of both the software and hardware. If there is suddenly a breakthrough in the development I'm sure they will offer REDCODE RAW at the max framerate (60) in 4k, or offer REDCODE RAW at windowed 2k 120 fps. But don't count on it. Current statement from Greame is REDCODE RAW up to 30 fps.

The sensor should be capable of 60 fps at 4k, 120 fps at windowed 2k, which has pretty much been confirmed. The 100% confirmation of features is when the camera is shipping.....

 

[D_and_G]

But unless there's an issue with focus that needs to be verified, the only time I want to deal with my footage in 4K is when I'm exporting my final master for showing on a big screen.

Which is why Fincher and Mann previewed dailies on a 2K projector (Barco, IS8).

The RED team seems to be making great strides in capturing 4K, and using it as a digital negative in post, but from what I've read and been told, the tech for finishing 4K has a long way to go. I don't trust LCD's for cc'ing unless you are talking about ecinema solutions ($20K and up for 1080p). And I've never had experience cc'ing 4K in A.E or shake for finishing, but if it can be done without render farms, then it's a step in the right direction...

You know, it's kind of ironic because I've always finished in an online suite, but I want the capability to finish up to 2K (with RED footy) in house, even if I don't use it. When it's your own money you want to limit the $3500- 7000 a day for the full online suite.

How do you check focus in 480p for a 4K RED acquisition Haakon ? I'd hate to get in the online suite and have a focus issue, that you'll have to find alternate takes on, or move clips etc... especially if you're paying for it out of your own pocket :beer:

I'm still trying to find a decent Hd reference grade monitor to finish up to 2K on, or at the very least 1080p. Besides the computer, it'll probably be the biggest expenditure post-wise.

Anyway, I'd love to find workarounds that don't compromise quality. And hopefully we can find a multiplicity of solutions here, with so many experts on board. An innovative RED camera deserves and innovative post workflow. I'm sure REDcine is just one step among many that we can eventually revise the traditional steps.

Great HD Reference monitors are probably going to be as in demand as lenses ... along with makeup artists :grin: :beer:


RED # rebel with a clue

 

[Haakon]

Unfortunately, none of us have 4K monitors as it is - so the only way to truly check focus is to view a windowed portion of the frame, and you certainly can't edit that way. And if you have to shrink it down to fit it on your monitor for editing, then what's the point of having a 4K image in your NLE? You can't judge focus without blowing it up and the large file sizes will bring your preview to a crawl. If you're cutting in a 1K window, you might as well be using a 1K proxy.

In other words, yes, if someone would like to donate a 2K projector to my home, I would be more than happy to use it. Otherwise, of higher priority is that I can actually cut and deal with the footage on my native home computer, and then let it churn out the 4K "master" overnight (or however long it takes) while I'm being productive elsewhere.

 

[glenn chan]

Wavelets are quite nice for compression. They don't add nasty noise like DCT does, and indeed, the only artifact you'll see, and only if you really pull the footage so far it's destroyed, is some mild noise reduction / softening.
What about wavelets as implemented in JPEG2000? It looks like it can produce "ringing" artifacts. See the following website for pictures:
http://ai.fri.uni-lj.si/~aleks/jpeg/artifacts.htm

2- Could you not choose a mother function for the wavelet that doesn't cause ringing? As I understand it, the functions that do cause ringing do so intentionally to reduce aliasing.
(ringing = phase shift errors)

Just looking for some enlightenment about wavelets here.

3- I do agree that wavelets are the way to go into this situation (and "RAW" color space, instead of Y'CbCr).

 

[D_and_G]

If you're cutting in a 1K window, you might as well be using a 1K proxy.

In other words, yes, if someone would like to donate a 2K projector to my home, I would be more than happy to use it. Otherwise, of higher priority is that I can actually cut and deal with the footage on my native home computer, and then let it churn out the 4K "master" overnight (or however long it takes) while I'm being productive elsewhere.

I hear they're having a 2K projector sale for Christmas. Maybe, you'll get one in your stocking.?;p

I've been contemplating shooting REDcode RAW 4K, using a 720P/1080p proxy, and then using a 1080p projector and HD reference monitor (1080p -2k?) in tandem for post and finishing 1080p 4:4:4. Is that even a plausible scenario ? Because at least then I can finish in 1080p or 720p, and only online/reconform an EDL in 4K if I have outside financing, or find my own.

Sure, storage of the 4K REDcode files may be problematic, but I'm willing to take the chance that there will be some sort of portable media to hold them - holographic, LTO, blu ray ?

Either that, or I sell my car and get a full 2K online suite...or get one for Christmas ;p :beer:

I have a feeling there will be a lot of people contemplating shooting 4K since the introduction of REDcine.:beer:


RED # rebel with a clue

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

Thanks David. I totally agree about the wavelets. They're a nice transform that does indeed work in conjunction with the human perceptual visual system to make sure than any artifacts, if you can see them at all, are very innocuous compared to DCT style artifacts, for exactly the reasons you specify.

Although, quite frankly, at the data rates we're using, I'm not seeing any evidence of artifacts at all without destroying the image with a nasty levels operation. I'm also dealing with the full 4.9k images, so for the same data rates, 4k should be better still

You can shoot REDCODE RAW up to 30p.

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

All compression can produce artifacts, Glenn! However, we're not compressing the images to the extent that we can see them any where near the level that that article demonstrates. It also helps that you have a pristine source

Graeme

 

[boothba]

You can shoot REDCODE RAW up to 30p.

Is that for 4K and 2K scaled? What about 2K windowed? I don't mean to ***** but what are our options for high-speed Redcode (short of an $$$ raid)? I don't suppose you could squeeze a higher frame rate out of 720p perhaps? Or a 320X240 thumbnail?:crybaby:

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

You can do 2k RGB (scaled) 60p. We're investigating other options for high speed too. Fingers crossed on that though.

Graeme

 

[Haakon]

You can shoot REDCODE RAW up to 30p.

Are you saying this as it relates to onboard recording, or are you only able to shoot up to 30p using REDCODE RAW, even if you're using a RAID or similar system?

If there's a way to record uncompressed 4K at 60p, why wouldn't a compressed REDCODE RAW stream be able to handle it? Just trying to get educated on how the system works...

 

[Haakon]

I've been contemplating shooting REDcode RAW 4K, using a 720P/1080p proxy, and then using a 1080p projector and HD reference monitor (1080p -2k?) in tandem for post and finishing 1080p 4:4:4.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking, too. The full 4K master is there as the highest-res "vault" copy, but I can create HD content for viewing on 1080p sets in the meantime. And having the EDL (or whatever it is) will allow me to edit quickly but apply it to the full 4K stream if I so choose. Lots of great options!

 

[boothba]

You can do 2k RGB (scaled) 60p. We're investigating other options for high speed too. Fingers crossed on that though.

Graeme

We're routing for ya Graeme. Perhaps if Jim gave you a raise and a crack team of data wranglers? Or I sent you a nice 6-pack of Canadian beer? Seriously though, high frame rates was a major selling point for me - is there really no way of squeezing a few more fps out of 720p - assuming it's all about data rates and all (which I'm sure it isn't.)

 

[Chris Kenny]

If there's a way to record uncompressed 4K at 60p, why wouldn't a compressed REDCODE RAW stream be able to handle it? Just trying to get educated on how the system works...

Presumably the camera doesn't have the on-board processing power to compress more than 30 4K frames per second.

 

[Graeme_Nattress]

As I say, 2k RGB 60p, 4k RAW 30p, 720p, dunno, but at least 60p, all on-board to a single drive. Limits are compression circuitry to handle it all.

Graeme

 

[agwah]

Unfortunately, none of us have 4K monitors as it is - so the only way to truly check focus is to view a windowed portion of the frame, and you certainly can't edit that way. And if you have to shrink it down to fit it on your monitor for editing, then what's the point of having a 4K image in your NLE? You can't judge focus without blowing it up and the large file sizes will bring your preview to a crawl. If you're cutting in a 1K window, you might as well be using a 1K proxy.

It would be so cool if you could just stop the editing on a 1K window and say click right on the image and the NLE would go get a still frame from the RAW footage at 4K for a quick focus or detail check

 

[David Newman]

It would be so cool if you could just stop the editing on a 1K window and say click right on the image and the NLE would go get a still frame from the RAW footage at 4K for a quick focus or detail check

That is pretty much how it does work -- dynamic preview resolution for fast and niblle editing, when you stop you can zoom in for the full detail. Offline editing is just not necessary.

 

[agwah]

so then what kind of computer setup is needed to view the different resolutions without dropped frames at 1K, 2K and 4K respectively

and would it be possible to have this kind of functionality with a laptop in the field, perhaps at 480 resolution to get an idea of where you are at, but still with the possibility of zooming in

 

[David Newman]

1K RT, any dual core. 2K RT, dual proc Woodcrest Xeon. 4k -- requires bayer demosiacing which occurs every time you stop on a frame and zoom in -- high quality demosaicing is too slow of 4k playback on today's hardware (but then who has a 4k display?)

 

[agwah]

great,

what is required from the storage drives in terms of transfer speeds etc. does it vary depending on the viewing resolution, or is it dependent on the file itself

I assume all of your above scenarios are running from the same 4K file