editing 4K at home...

agwah said:
great,

what is required from the storage drives in terms of transfer speeds etc. does it vary depending on the viewing resolution, or is it dependent on the file itself

I assume all of your above scenarios are running from the same 4K file
Click to expand...

RAID-0 with two drives is all you will need. Yes the disk bandwidth is the same for all decoded resolutions as they are sourced from the same 4k source files, but the CPU usage varies greatly with resolution.
 
David Newman said:
1K RT, any dual core. 2K RT, dual proc Woodcrest Xeon. 4k -- requires bayer demosiacing which occurs every time you stop on a frame and zoom in -- high quality demosaicing is too slow of 4k playback on today's hardware (but then who has a 4k display?)
Click to expand...

As far as editing goes I will happily admit to being a noob... I was wondering though, if we are using 4k redcode raw @27MB/S do we not just need a setup that allows throughput of 27MB/S or more? I understand a little of the bayer demosaicing you talk of (Not nearly enough) I just can't quite understand what stops a system that can easily handle 27MB/S and then some from being able to cope with it? Understandably if you are editing the RAW footage @ 323MB/s it'd need an outragous setup. Thanks in advance to anyone that can clear that up for me.
 
Exactly! REDCINE allows us to shoot in hi res and then edit on whatever workstations we've got right now. And if that means editing in 1K so that I don't have to set up new raid systems or invest in pricy new computer hardware, that's fantastic. What do you think made the DV revolution so successful? Offline is definitely the way to go!
 
Haakon said:
What do you think made the DV revolution so successful? Offline is definitely the way to go!
Click to expand...

Those too statements contradict. DV was successful as it was used as an on-line format, so users didn't need to mess with proxies and conforms.
 
Homersapien said:
... I was wondering though, if we are using 4k redcode raw @27MB/S do we not just need a setup that allows throughput of 27MB/S or more? I understand a little of the bayer demosaicing you talk of (Not nearly enough) I just can't quite understand what stops a system that can easily handle 27MB/S and then some from being able to cope with it? Understandably if you are editing the RAW footage @ 323MB/s it'd need an outragous setup. Thanks in advance to anyone that can clear that up for me.
Click to expand...

The issue is decompression uses a lot of CPU whereas uncompressed uses a lot of bandwidth (and the CPU does very little.) So a 27MB/s compressed stream requires a very simple disk system and beefy CPU setup. Demosaicing so required for both compressed RAW and uncompressed RAW, this is processing of converting the bayer sensor data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_sensor) into 4:4:4 RGB (the good algorithms are slow.)
 
David Newman said:
Those too statements contradict. DV was successful as it was used as an on-line format, so users didn't need to mess with proxies and conforms.
Click to expand...
To the contrary, DV was successful because it could easily be handled on modest systems without requiring expensive workstation platforms. Any first time user with a $200 handycam can get cracking with iMovie.

Believe me, if full on 4K editing is possible without any changes to my workflow, I'm all for it. But like you've already mentioned, there are going to be minimum system requirements and probably new hardware to buy in order to achieve that. While we're getting into new technology and there's nothing wrong with beefing up your systems as well, if I can bypass those hassles by editing in a lower res proxy at lightning speed and then let the computer crunch out a 4K master on its own time, that's even better. In the end, it's going to be about efficiency and cost, and if editing in 4K proves to be a burden in both of those areas, you won't see people flocking to it. The great news is that we've got choices, and I'm sure that people with the power and resources to edit in 4K will do so. However, I highly doubt that is what most people on these forums will be doing unless REDCINE proves to be even more of a breakthrough than it already has. Of course, if it does, I'm all for that... it works out in our favor either way. :)
 
You just agreed with me, although you start sentences with "To the contrary" just to sound disagreeable with my posts. :) If you look at the subject of this thread "editing 4K at home...", I am stating, yes that is possible. I'm even saying you could do it with last years sub-$1000 Pentium D, I just recommend the new system. If you going to spend $20k+ on camera gear, a computer built in the last year is not a bad idea.
 
Graeme_Nattress said:
As I say, 2k RGB 60p, 4k RAW 30p, 720p, dunno, but at least 60p, all on-board to a single drive. Limits are compression circuitry to handle it all.

Graeme
Click to expand...

So we will need to go uncompressed (with RAID) to get 4K 60fps?

So Red shooters will most likely be dropping to 2K RGB to ramp up the frame rate... I can live with that.
 
David Newman said:
If you going to spend $20k+ on camera gear, a computer built in the last year is not a bad idea.
Click to expand...
Sure, if money is no object. But if I can edit the RED material and conform to 4K with what I've already got, all the better. I think for most people for whom RED is already going to be a bit of a stretch financially, that is the route they will take. However, like I mentioned, choices are great and it's good that both options are available. I know you're passionate about what your company does and I'm not trying to downplay that. I have nothing against online editing at all - it's obviously the most desirable way to edit if everything else was equal. The reality is that rarely is that the case. I know from lots of experience that even the 1080 footage from an HVX is taxing on a Mac Pro - the best computer they currently make - and I can't imagine trying to cut 4K on one. As I mentioned before, if I could edit in SD proxy even for that material I would. If the solutions provided by RED prove otherwise, then fantastic. :) But I think you will find yourself dissapointed if you are assuming everyone is going to run out and pimp their computers after they've spent $20K on the camera if there is a free (and more efficient) workaround. Just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
Haakon said:
I think for most people for whom RED is already going to be a bit of a stretch financially, that is the route they will take.
Click to expand...

That's me! Shoot 4K, edit 576p! (maybe 720p)

Work out the rest later...
 
David Newman said:
The issue is decompression uses a lot of CPU whereas uncompressed uses a lot of bandwidth (and the CPU does very little.) So a 27MB/s compressed stream requires a very simple disk system and beefy CPU setup. Demosaicing so required for both compressed RAW and uncompressed RAW, this is processing of converting the bayer sensor data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_sensor) into 4:4:4 RGB (the good algorithms are slow.)
Click to expand...
So to use the compressed stream, before it shows the image on the screen, it needs to demosaic the entire image. Does this eliminate the "any dual core" you spoke of, if so, what power computer will you need to edit the compressed version in 1K and 2K respectively.

It would be cool if the 27MB/s compressed version had a small proxy inside of it that you could edit with a laptop in the field, without accessing all the image information and again see the full 4K as soon as the NLE stopped. That would make it possible to run a very low impact operation, perhaps even solo from a small hotel room anywhere in the world.
 
Sorry, you guys simply aren't making any sense . . .

You're spending $20K+ on a camera, yet you can't take advantage the power that a new $3K workstation can deliver to give you real-time CineForm RAW at 4K resolutions!!??

So I guess you must be purchasing a "base" RED One, which means a Red camera head, no lenses, no EVF, no cage, no tripod, no rails, no batteries, no battery chargers, no travel case, no decent microphone/audio, no follow-focus, no matte-box/filters (which means how are you going to mount a simple ND filter when you go outside??) basically nothing else but the Red camera itself?

Hmm . . . are you going to rent this "other" gear? If so, where are you going to get the money for that if you can't afford $3K for a new computer with a modern processor to edit realtime 4K?

I kind of find it hard to believe that someone would actually *rather* edit offline/online than edit the footage natively in realtime with dual streams, effects, etc.
 
agwah,

It works at the performance levels I describe. We can decode to 1k and 2k without expensive demosaicing. Yes it works on a laptop (if you sustain 27MB/s.)
 
Jason Rodriguez said:
Sorry, you guys simply aren't making any sense . . .

You're spending $20K+ on a camera, yet you can't take advantage the power that a new $3K workstation can deliver to give you real-time CineForm RAW at 4K resolutions!!??

So I guess you must be purchasing a "base" RED One, which means a Red camera head, no lenses, no EVF, no cage, no tripod, no rails, no batteries, no battery chargers, no travel case, no decent microphone/audio, no follow-focus, no matte-box/filters (which means how are you going to mount a simple ND filter when you go outside??) basically nothing else but the Red camera itself?

Hmm . . . are you going to rent this "other" gear? If so, where are you going to get the money for that if you can't afford $3K for a new computer with a modern processor to edit realtime 4K?

I kind of find it hard to believe that someone would actually *rather* edit offline/online than edit the footage natively in realtime with dual streams, effects, etc.
Click to expand...


You will be able to rent the camera to, that way a lot of hungry young filmmakers will be able to make their first short look great with a minimal editing setup while spending the minimum amount on a few days rental.
 
"To me, the great hope is that now [that] these little 8-millimeter video recorders and stuff [have] come out, some... just people who normally wouldn't be making movies, are going to be making them. You know, that suddenly one day, some little FAT girl in Ohio is going to be the next Mozart and make a beautiful film with her little father's camcorder. And for once, this whole "professionalism" about movie making will be destroyed forever and lead into an art form... That's my opinion." -Francis Ford Coppola

If that girl has a few hundred bucks and a rental house nearby she could go with a RED...
 
You will be able to rent the camera to, that way a lot of hungry young filmmakers will be able to make their first short look great with a minimal editing setup while spending the minimum amount on a few days rental.
Click to expand...

If you don't have money for a good setup, you're not gonna have the ability to get many rentals with your package . . . I'm not sure how much renting you do, but it's a hassle to rent from 2 or more places . . . it's double the work with organizing, scheduling, insurance, tech support, etc. So if you can't provide a base "package" (which typically means at the minimum sticks/fluid head, zoom lens, camera, and any viewing stuff like a EVF or monitor), you're going to severely limit your ability to win regional or even local rentals. You also better have your own insurance for your gear if you're planning on renting it, just to cover your butt.

Why should I rent from you if it still means I have to go across town and get the rest of the gear from someone else (and what happens when they get a Red?)?

You quickly see here that without a minimum investment in gear, rental income can quickly dry up when those who can provide a package get their own camera. And this minimum investment in gear puts you well over $30K . . . at that price an editing workstation for real-time 4K multi-stream at another $3K is pennies (less than 10% of the total cost).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top