The RED full-meal-deal?

Stephen W said:
You do realise you're talking about offlining in HD don't you :)
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Yeah, that's got me excited too. It's like a digital negative, with all the information you need, but it's up to you to decide how you want to process it, (what kind of telecine for example)... Personally, I thought it would be years before I even considered shooting in 4K. If the specs bear out, then I can shoot in 4K today, treat it like a digital negative and then let other imperatives take over.

The only few things that are bothersome are getting a follow focus I'm happy with, finding a lens solution before the RED zoom ships, and finding a HD reference grade monitor good enough for 2K, that doesn't cost as much as the camera. I know there will be some people cc'ing off LCD's but I don't know if I would try that at 2K. As long as I have the ability to post (including cc) any project I want up to 2K, I'll be chuffed. The caveat being the cost.

I can't imagine that it would be practicable to post in 4K, cc in 4K, preview in 4K, and output in 4K. All of which is why, IMHO, treating it as a digital negative is a good strategy. Hence, you can choose your target level for post, equip your studio for that level, and for everything else online at a professional edit suite where they have 2K/4K projection for previews, huge reference grade monitors, professional cc artists, massive render farms, and the ability to film out if needed... all of which will probably be picked up by other parties (clients, purchasers).

And at the end of it you have a digital negative that you can always go back to reconform at 4K, if you need too. And you know I have a suspicion that we haven't heard the full potential of REDCINE yet...here's hopin'.

BTW, Mike, I know you've done a lot of research on lenses , and it shows :) So, I guess you know there are practical matters of physics involved in lens size and weight. If the RED zoom comes close in weight and size similar to the Arri lightweight for example (4.5 pounds) then I don't think we can ask for more. Like Gibby and Greg stated - a 2/3" mod, used S16, or possible still mod, is going to be your best bet.

RED + Zoom # aged in oak barrels
 
BTW, Mike, I know you've done a lot of research on lenses , and it shows :) So, I guess you know there are practical matters of physics involved in lens size and weight. If the RED zoom comes close in weight and size similar to the Arri lightweight for example (4.5 pounds) then I don't think we can ask for more. Like Gibby and Greg stated - a 2/3" mod, used S16, or possible still mod, is going to be your best bet
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I was wondering what Arri lightweight you refer to ? The only "small " zoom I can think of is the Cooke 15-40 (which is a 8 pounder) Or where you thinking of the Variprimes (16-30/29-55/50-105)? (They don't make em anymore, at least 8 pound each as far as I can remember, a pain to shoot handheld with) and pricey as well. When shooting with 2/3 or s16 lenses you lose the 4k advantage, however it is still a great option for HD or 2k at 120 fps. But if you wanna use that why not go for the Sillicon imaging camera, same price as the RED, and available sooner than the RED.
 
aaton31 said:
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But if you wanna use that why not go for the Sillicon imaging camera, same price as the RED, and available sooner than the RED.
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If RED wouldn't be ready for a few years then I can see the justification for getting the silicon now. However, to blow 20,000 on a 1080p camera when a 4k camera is coming out with an efficient 4k workflow thats only about 6-8 months away? I think I'll pass on the Silicon. The difference in quality between 4k and 1080p is staggering to me. Besides the 4k picture quality of the RED still we have seen, just the sheer resolution of 4k dwarfs 1080p (especially when when you look at the chart on the Red website)

I rather rent until the REd comes out. For those who can't swing the s35 zoom lens. Just rent them.
 
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ditto what another user said about apple (or any other company) coming out with a full 4k lcd. I'm guessing they may hit us with a 4k capable 36 inch. I know it is wishful thinking, but hopefully the RED user base in 2007 will influence apple to fulfill the 4k monitoring need. Maybe Jim can give ol Steve Jobs a call to step up.

I can see it now. Mac conference in July 2007. Steve doing his keynote address and Jim coming out on stage to unveil the new Apple 4k lcd displaying 4k footage from RED. hehe :thumbup:

I remember a sony exec coming on stage with Steve a couple years ago showing off one of the early sony hd cameras.
 
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One place listed it for:
Viewsonic VP2290b
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Regular Price: $7,999.00
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Sale Price: $5,999.00
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I have also seen it on ebay for 2199.
 
If RED wouldn't be ready for a few years then I can see the justification for getting the silicon now. However, to blow 20,000 on a 1080p camera when a 4k camera is coming out with an, efficent 4k workflow, about 6-8 months away? I think I'll pass on the Silicon. The difference in quality between 4k and 1080p is staggering to me. The sheer resolution of 4k dwarfs 1080p when you look at the chart on the Red website.
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Thats why i want the red PLUS low light abilities and lattitude. You see there are times when i can use either a s35mm wide angle prime or still wide angle (though limited wide angle still lenses are available) for underwater and night fishing sequences when i dont mind a shallow DOF so long as the person is seen with minimum light. The red camera looks to be fantastic for specific requirements i have in mind.

I know in my heart that Gibby and Greg are bang on for advising a s16mm zoom or a 2/3rds hd zoom but until it is established that these lenses will perform well on the minimized red sensor i dont' want to invest in those lenses. i have ordered a red zoom as it gives me options for the time being. D & G if red zoom comes out at 4.5lbs i can live with that. I can window the sensor and possibly the red zoom could be a very versatile lens. I can cancell at any time with no strings attached and by the way i thank Jim Jannard for that as no other company would ever offer such a simple deal. If i cancell i just put the $750 towards the camera. Red have made it simple for everyone to get involved and put your faith in the camera, i like that.

I have a friend that has a leica m4 p he has a set of prime lens with it. I dont know much about mounts but could these lenses be used with red and what is involved to make them work? I know i could er.....give him a nice digital camera for the lenses. See what i mean about red! I also have an uncle that was into photography years ago, what will he have lying about that could be used? All these things are potential uses for red. I wish other camera firms no malice but red gives us options...loads of options. Incidently i actually want to practice with a fixed lens to see how limited i am in positioning myself to utilize the lenses focal length to its max potential. Zooms are great but i have a feeling that if you can do without a zoom maybe (just maybe) the composition may be better with a prime. Goodness here's me thinking in my head, can't wait to get out there and practice.

Michael
 
tonacidigital said:
One place listed it for:
Viewsonic VP2290b
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Regular Price: $7,999.00
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Sale Price: $5,999.00
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I have also seen it on ebay for 2199.
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I went to the Viewsonic webpage and could not see anything with those kind of specs... but your price was kinda of what I was guess... looking at some for $1,999 for a third of the specs...

Thanks for the info...
 
I wish people would stop whining about the cost of things, you just dont get business, economics, marketing, etc. Why on God's green earth do people think HARD costs are the only thing that should be considered? Is talent, labor, research, overheard, etc. worthless? That kind of attitude in a creative forum is especially dumbfounding. So, if you get paid to direct a music video next week, should be be paid for just the tapes it was shot on? Wait, those can be re-used. What are you charging $5k for? Products dont invent themselves or produce themselves and we are not talking about the chip clip here.

You know why a Steadicam costs more than a Glidecam? Because it works better, is engineered better, etc. If you got it down to the raw material, I suspect comparing similar areas of the line, you are about even in material costs. Does the rubber, metal, plastic, etc. that makes up a Porsche really cost 10 times as much as the material to make a Ford Focus? An Arri follow focus is made for PROFESSIONAL ACs who need that quality of work, build, performance, consistency, SUPPORT, etc. that you just cant get from joe-bobs indie squankmire follow focus for $150.

My suggestion to the people who always sit back and whine about how expensive stuff is... shut up or make one cheaper that works just as good =o)




ash =o)
 
AshG said:
An Arri follow focus is made for PROFESSIONAL ACs who need that quality of work, build, performance, consistency, SUPPORT, etc. that you just cant get from joe-bobs indie squankmire follow focus for $150.

My suggestion to the people who always sit back and whine about how expensive stuff is... shut up or make one cheaper that works just as good =o)




ash =o)
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Hey dude, I just asked what the difference between the red rock/cavision, and the Arri follow focus was. Maybe you can enlighten me with specifics ?

I don't think I've ever complained about the price of something, though. Check my posts. :) :beer:



RED + Zoom # rebel with a clue
 
Don't worry, D_and_G... Ash was also the one who repeatedly said before NAB that any prospect of RED ONE debuting at anything under $50,000 was a pipe dream. We all know R&D is important, but we also know that we live in an age where a $2 USB cable at Best Buy will easily set you back $35. There has to be a balance between paying the bills and completely raping the customer. Jim and the RED team have demonstrated that their M.O. is to offer quality products without compromise while keeping prices reasonable and competitive at the same time. What a concept, eh? I think that, ultimately, the level of concern and individual attention that Red has placed on the customer is what will keep them in business for the long run - regardless of what their markups are. That's something that a lot of us recognize and appreciate greatly... or at least 600 of us do.
 
thks Ash for clear words - myself is wondering what different poeple and interests are discussing here the Red. I also believe, if you want to shoot with Red you have to spent money - and if you want to use it in 4K you need to have best lenses, best support and not Cokin Matteboxes or manfrotto tripods.....
 
AshG said:
I wish people would stop whining about the cost of things, you just dont get business, economics, marketing, etc. Why on God's green earth do people think HARD costs are the only thing that should be considered? Is talent, labor, research, overheard, etc. worthless? That kind of attitude in a creative forum is especially dumbfounding. So, if you get paid to direct a music video next week, should be be paid for just the tapes it was shot on? Wait, those can be re-used. What are you charging $5k for? Products dont invent themselves or produce themselves and we are not talking about the chip clip here.

You know why a Steadicam costs more than a Glidecam? Because it works better, is engineered better, etc. If you got it down to the raw material, I suspect comparing similar areas of the line, you are about even in material costs. Does the rubber, metal, plastic, etc. that makes up a Porsche really cost 10 times as much as the material to make a Ford Focus? An Arri follow focus is made for PROFESSIONAL ACs who need that quality of work, build, performance, consistency, SUPPORT, etc. that you just cant get from joe-bobs indie squankmire follow focus for $150.

My suggestion to the people who always sit back and whine about how expensive stuff is... shut up or make one cheaper that works just as good =o)




ash =o)
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I don't get your rant here... because you want to consider the cost of something... your whinning...
 
I believe he was whining about my posts, I was the one being the most critical of senselessly overpriced pieces of equipment. While I agree with essentially all of his points, I'll never concede that a $4,300 follow focus is appropriately priced.
 
The market will always determine the price. Not good will. (Unless you live in a communist country -- in which case I feel sorry for you.)

Doc.
 
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